What classes benefit most from gear progression

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by shovelquest [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In a straight fight, would a BIS fully itemized monk beat a BIS fully itemized warrior, face to face tanking/dpsing each other?

The monk would naked..

So if the warrior can beat the monk fully geared, then the warrior gets the most benefit.

That's if class power is based purely on the ability to avoid, take, and put out damage in a rock em sock em 1v1 duel though. Those restrictions wouldn't allow players to showcase much in terms of know-how, which is why the BotB tournaments always seemed out of place personally, at least on PvE servers. Even on PvP servers, you still have to account for the environment and its NPCs, unlike in the Arena.

A class that has shadowstep can go from the top of the gorge in OT to the bottom without taking fall damage. A class with gravflux can launch themselves back up to drop-off points. A class with feign death run headlong into a pack of mobs and be safely out of range of opponents, swapping in worn regen items until ready to restart the fight. It's a different kind of power but no less powerful, and some gear upgrades allow for more of it.

[shovelquest]

But we're talking pure itemization here, not skill.

Skill should not be involved in this at all. Two characters monk/warrior.

Face tanking. Auto attacking, ̶u̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶c̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶m̶e̶l̶e̶e̶ ̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶i̶e̶s̶,̶ and letting RNG and mitigation sort the rest.

Which would win by how much?

I guess theres a reasonable argument to determine which class has the most game changing utility items, and how much benefit you get from those that you'd not already get from spellbook spells etc.

Warrior does have a lot of utility items that provide abilities that they don't get without gear, so that's a more robust discussion than just pure hp/ac/dps provided by gear.

But in the context of monk vs warrior, I am curious BIS in terms of raw DPS/mitigation, which one gets more benefit from the gear than the other.

I agree a monk can do more than a warrior, but that is because of FD and Mend and stuff. In fact if we were to remove disc/abilities and just do pure dps output from warrior vs monk and dps mitigation from gear... that would probably be more of a control than allowing mend/dics's because you can do those without gear.

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by shovelquest [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But we're talking pure itemization here, not skill.

Skill should not be involved in this at all. Two characters monk/warrior.

Face tanking. Auto attacking, using discs and other melee abilities, and letting RNG and mitigation sort the rest.

Which would win by how much?

For sure, if that's its own separate conversation within the larger discussion. It is interesting in its own right, similar to raid NPC 1v1s that were showcased a while back.

The title does ask though, which class benefits the most? Those benefits apply to all aspects of the game, not just PvP but PvE. And gear progression can't be reduced to 1v1 hit or miss, even in PvP, because much of that progress is more nuanced.

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by shovelquest [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But we're talking pure itemization here, not skill.

Skill should not be involved in this at all. Two characters monk/warrior.

Face tanking. Auto attacking, ̶u̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶c̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶m̶e̶l̶e̶e̶ ̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶i̶e̶s̶,̶ and letting RNG and mitigation sort the rest.

Which would win by how much?

I guess theres a reasonable argument to determine which class has the most game changing utility items, and how much benefit you get from those that you'd not already get from spellbook spells etc.

Warrior does have a lot of utility items that provide abilities that they don't get without gear, so that's a more robust discussion than just pure hp/ac/dps provided by gear.

But in the context of monk vs warrior, I am curious BIS in terms of raw DPS/mitigation, which one gets more benefit from the gear than the other.

I agree a monk can do more than a warrior, but that is because of FD and Mend and stuff. In fact if we were to remove disc/abilities and just do pure dps output from warrior vs monk and dps mitigation from gear... that would probably be more of a control than allowing mend/dics's because you can do those without gear.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010502...67753118.shtml

Pre-Velious and by no means definitive but, still, it's classic info from one of the household SOE names.

Friday, August 11th, 2000

Warriors vs. Monks
by Chris - 08/11/00 03:04 EST
...and the debate continues! Abashi did a test, read all about it below.
I'm about to take off, but I thought I'd drop by some data before I do.
I took a level 60 human monk and a level 60 human warrior with the same stats, equipped them each with an FBSS, and cast strength, dex, and SLTW on them.

With the monk, I tried 6 different weapons combos, starting at bare knuck, and ending with the top PoS weapon. (Didn't get into VP stuff which is better). With the warrior, I tried 5 different weapons combos, starting with dual SSoYs, and ending the the top PoS weapons. (Again, didn't get into VP).

Both PCs, at level 60, spawned an engaged a level 45 NPC (one on one with the NPC) for each test. As this is a test of offensive potential, the NPC was not allowed to fight back. Both PCs used 1 additional combat skill as often as it was available. Kick for the warrior and flying kick for the monk. Neither used any disciplines. It should be noted that since the NPC was not allowed to fight back, the warrior never entered berserk mode, which could sway results some in actual combat. I might run the tests over for the warrior while keeping him in berserk mode.

Results: The monk outdamaged the warrior given appropriate equipment in every case. The only time the warrior outdamaged the monk was when the warrior had his best weapon, and the monk his worst (bare knuck).

Matching up weapon-type for weapon type, the monks worst set (bare knuck) versus the warriors worst (dual ssoy's), the monk outdamaged the warrior by nearly 25%. Best versus best, the monks outdamaged by just over 25%. The lowest difference obtained for appropriate equipment was still a 20% surplus to monks. The worst armed monk versus the best armed warrior still favored the monk by 10%.

Of course, there was only one combat versus the NPC per PC per weapons combo, so those numbers will probably move a bit over several combats. As it is, it's a pretty good indicator that monks are doing fine, and yes, they rock

-Gordon

Related Links:
http://boards.station.sony.com/everq...ML/003665.html

Saturday, August 12th, 2000

More Monks vs. Warriors
by Chris - 08/12/00 15:48 EST
Abashi explained more about why he ran the test the way he did.
For the past several weeks, the complaints by monks here on the board (most of the complaints anyway) have been that they no longer outdamage warriors. The tests that I did were only to confirm that that wasn't true. Yes, I conceed that monks cannot takes hits as well as warriors, but that's never been where the disagreement has been. When people said, "Monks no longer outdamage warriors", I had to disagree, which is why I ended up testing it out. However, when people now say, "We can't take hits like a warrior", I agree with that.
Dealing out more damage than the warrior doesn't mean that you'll beat the warrior in a duel, nor that the ratio of damage dealing to damage taking capability is constant. The benefit of extra damage has more weight than the disadvantage of being defensively inferior.

I'm sure that some would say, "If a warrior can solo creature X in two minutes and be almost dead at the end, then a monk should be able to do the same in a minute and end up almost dead". This would be an example of constant ratio between offense and defense and the two classes. This however isn't the case. If the ratio were constant as suggested, there would, again, be no reason to have the warrior, because the monk's other skills would make them preferable in all cases. Not to mention, there's an added benefit any time a creature is killed faster than normal, a benefit that can't be measured directly against the power of the class, but more against its usefulness to the group. Would a group, for instance, like to kill things in 2 minutes and end up OOM and near death at the end? Or would the rather do it in 1 minute and end up the same way? They'd want it done faster in all cases. That's what monks and rogues add as melee classes.

Concerning everyone saying that the test wasn't "valid", I fully agree with that from a scientific standpoint. Many more combats would have to be carried out than the ones I could do over a couple of hours yesterday. To be honest, its not really my job to test things of this nature, I just do it as needed so I can speak with first-hand experience. Though the specific percentage point differences can't really be considered averages, I do think that the test fairly well answered the question: Do monks outdamage warriors?

There was one interesting thing in the test that I didn't mention in the post yesterday, concerning the one time that the warrior outdamaged the monk. The warrior was using his best combo out of the 5 weapon combos I tried, the monk his worst (bare knuck). The damage ratios were determined by seeing how long it took for the character to kill the NPC in question. The monk completed the task in under two minutes in every case but one, where it took 2:03. The warrior was over two minutes in every case, with its fastest time at 2:01. The monk's best time, by the way, was 1:30.

-Gordon

Related Links:
http://boards.station.sony.com/everq...ML/004016.html

[Snaggles]

An Abashi is like 11% better ratio than the Palladius Axe of Slaughter. That’s a massive difference.

Hypothetically a 60 monk vs 60 warrior with the same attack power and a Shovel of the Harvest? It’s probably closer than one would think, especially if the warrior is rolling out at <45% health and offensive discing. A few big crippling blows (or even crits) can move the parse.

[cd288]

I think you'd be surprised how often a Monk could come out on top in that fight, even without abilities/discs being used.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think you'd be surprised how often a Monk could come out on top in that fight, even without abilities/discs being used.

I don’t main either class, just throwing out an example that’s a bit more rational than “BiS vs BiS”. Running a zerk warrior has limited uses anyways.

I’m not surprised by much, tbh.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don’t main either class, just throwing out an example that’s a bit more rational than “BiS vs BiS”. Running a zerk warrior has limited uses anyways.

I’m not surprised by much, tbh.

Oh sorry I was talking to the warrior guy

[Crede]

Originally Posted by Selene [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Which classes benefit the most from gear upgrades from 1-60 and then raid gear/rare drops? I think one of the most fun aspects of this game and why everyone plays is to see how a new piece of gear fundamentally changes the way a class is played or at least provides such a power-up in the class that it almost seems like a new class to play.

I heard warrior benefits a lot, but what are the top contenders? I’d think most pure casters don’t really benefit except for wizard (jboots).

Let’s hear it!

The answer is necro. Gearing them out fundamentally changes the way they play when you can start face tanking stuff given how channeling works on p99. Adding bis gear to their already ridiculous toolkit just makes them even more fun. There’s pretty much no where I wouldn’t go on a geared necro.

I’d give monks/sks as the next ones. Having gear and FD allows you to stretch the limits.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The answer is necro. Gearing them out fundamentally changes the way they play when you can start face tanking stuff given how channeling works on p99. Adding bis gear to their already ridiculous toolkit just makes them even more fun. There’s pretty much no where I wouldn’t go on a geared necro.

I’d give monks/sks as the next ones. Having gear and FD allows you to stretch the limits.

What gear for Necro?