Common Monk Weapons Parsing - DPS and Damage Taken

[Vivitron]

Originally Posted by Ennewi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dev favoritism towards the monk class wasn't all that bad for the game IMO. They weren't wrong for wanting to do it. The class plays really well and becomes all the more fun with upgrades. But it would have gone a long way if some of that favor had been placed elsewhere more broadly.

Giving old Vulak's loot table a once-over, there are two monk-only drops and a third that is shared with necromancers. Though the headband gets pooh-poohed for falling short of 100hp BiS, all three drops overshadow much of what else is there. And no other class has that many Vulak drops available to it exclusively. Meanwhile, there is precisely one instrument in the entire zone for bards, one of two items only for bards but that's including the underwhelming flurry loot drop which doesn't measure up to any of the other flurry loot drops, much less the monk's.

Rewinding back to the Kunark expansion, as with pure casters, monks weren't provided with any fancy armor set, nothing akin to Deepwater and Tolan's. However, again there was an exception, as the class did receive Robe of the Whistling Fists which included a clicky that, unlike the Trakanon breastplates, was instant and clickable at 30 instead of 45. Similar case with their epic as well. All other melee epics are weapons that depend on procs.

As if to underscore this more lax approach, where before the class had only one race available to it (yet another unique limitation), Kunark added a race with innate AC and regen, two features that, together, benefitted monks more than any other class with necromancers being a close second, if not tied for first. Coin weight a nagging issue for one particular class? The next expansion introduces a very large coin purse. Limited supply of bandages? The same expansion introduces a small manisi plant.

Granted, very few players got ahold of these items during the classic timeline but still, every step of the way a restriction tied to class identity was eased if the player went above and beyond for those items. Most, if not all, of these items fall under rule of cool IMO, but there needed to be more elsewhere for other classes to level out the playing field.

An interesting perspective, I agree the drive to get those those rule of cool items that remove your limitations and make you more independent is a strong aspect of the game. On the bard side, getting prime hand instruments so you can cast+melee is one of those things. But it is weird that the only Velious bis instrument is from SG instead of raid content; the ToV horn is worse than the sky horn.

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

An interesting perspective, I agree the drive to get those those rule of cool items that remove your limitations and make you more independent is a strong aspect of the game.

Another example—rangers not having the ability to port despite borrowing from the druid's spell list. With enough plat or the right guild tag, a unique self-port becomes unlocked with a click of Tolan's Breastplate. Sure, it takes three times longer to cast than self-only ports do for druids, but with no mana cost and no spell slot required.

The devs coulda shoulda added in an element of risk though, sending rangers to Kithicor Forest instead of Lesser Faydark. Then, depending on the hour, there would be the potential for an embarrassing death, not all that different for wizards porting into Skyfire. Granted, lfay is arguably more dangerous than Kithicor, what with all of the brownies running around and a months-long change involving Cazic Thule minions, but the actual port-in loc is safe.

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

On the bard side, getting prime hand instruments so you can cast+melee is one of those things. But it is weird that the only Velious bis instrument is from SG instead of raid content; the ToV horn is worse than the sky horn.

Yeah its value lies mostly in the primary slot convenience, especially since Velious added a pair of weapons with group-wide procs. That it also boasts very high AC, similar to the flurry drop for bards, indicates the devs were still mindful of song aggro. Hard to make sense of the 22 mod though. Guessing the same dev had to be responsible for Lute of the Howler as well, since same mod and also primary. In the case of the horn, 22 is acceptable if not in with the tank group. One mod lower than Kunark secondary horn and two lower than Sky primary. So the devs must have expected players to continue revisiting those old zones and finishing the Plane of Sky quests, even though there would be no 2.0 treatment for Sky as was the case with Fear and Hate.

As for Drums of the Beast, AFAIK the whole of SG was more or less considered raid content back then, at least until the zonewide nerf that made CCing less of a crapshoot.

The fact that bards were the most hybrid of hybrids meant that they didn't have a specific parent class for quick reference, to compare and contrast or piggyback off of, so that may have contributed to them receiving less dev attention overall. Using rangers as an example again, druids receive wolf form? Okay, well let's give rangers the same spells at higher levels with the exception of a rare weapon that procs the best version of the spell earlier. Insert the Lupine Dagger here.

Even though the game plays very differently depending on what you choose at character select (although at early levels every class is basically the same, weak melee), eventually the black and white absolutes begin to gray, with there being more than one exception to most any given rule, available to the player of each class if dedicated enough.

That said, who tf knows what the devs were thinking with Scimitar of the Mistwalker. Yes, there is some overlap between the druid/ranger and shaman. All three get spirit of wolf at various levels, plus both shaman and druid can charm animals, but little more than an affinity for nature seems to connect them. Maybe, initially, druids were going to receive wolf pets as well? But that idea got scrapped because class identity required more contrast, so druids were eventually given the bear pet instead as a consolation. Either that or the devs floated the idea of a beastmaster class at some point during alpha/beta, but it didn't materialize since they already had too many classes to get into the game by launch. It also could just be another case of the BFG, where a dev went rogue and added something they wanted just because, only for it to be removed later.

[jolanar]

Monks were obviously supposed to have better ratio weapons than other classes, so I dont think the 29/30 ratio was a mistake. It's ratio is on par with other similar two handers in high level Kunark dungeons.The proc kicks it up a notch, but that was nerfed on live later in the timeline.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by jolanar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Monks were obviously supposed to have better ratio weapons than other classes, so I dont think the 30/30 ratio was a mistake. It's ratio is on par with other similar two handers in high level Kunark dungeons.The proc kicks it up a notch, but that was nerfed on live later in the timeline.

Post vanilla, yea, but the initial concept was they sacrifice the best weapons (slashing) and armour (chain/plate) for their heightened abilities (better kicks, earlier skills that improve in cap through the 40s).

Kunark flipped the equation and now they got the best skills AND the best weapons. Velious then gave them armour near enough best too.

[jolanar]

All true. My comment was specifically about the tstaff fitting in with intended monk design, not whether that design was a mistake or not.

Now that high end gear is so ubiquitous on P99, much of the early gear advantage that monks have goes away. Example: Reaver being so cheap.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by jolanar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All true. My comment was specifically about the tstaff fitting in with intended monk design, not whether that design was a mistake or not.

Now that high end gear is so ubiquitous on P99, much of the early gear advantage that monks have goes away. Example: Reaver being so cheap.

Yea a reaver class can keep pace until 50+ when monks just pull away due to clicky haste, op mend/bind wound, and ridiculous mitigation and their dps continues to scale well. Nerf their dps and I think it fits the lore better of what a monk should be while still retaining superior mitigation/survival skills.

[Goregasmic]

Originally Posted by jolanar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Monks were obviously supposed to have better ratio weapons than other classes, so I dont think the 29/30 ratio was a mistake. It's ratio is on par with other similar two handers in high level Kunark dungeons.The proc kicks it up a notch, but that was nerfed on live later in the timeline.

I don't know, they removed ton po's, nerfed moss covered twig into irrelevance and even the RFS became the IFS and so on, somebody dropped the ball somewhat bit yeah, I guess the general idea still remains.

But like jimjam said, lack of chain/plate and weight restriction pretty much relegated them to shit gear during most of kunark. Now you'd think shit gear was a drawback but in the end being non gear dependent is a boon more than anything else... Then velious came and flipped the script on its head, pretty much removing the "drawback".

On another note I just wanted to thank OP for sharing his findings. Everyone says 2handers are leagues away from 1handers but from my napkin math it was pretty close and wondering if I was crazy. The parses show 2h still do better for his content but it is probably much closer when you compare an IFS vs AC/Epic + SOS. I'm partial to 2handers but people going 1handers aren't at a big disadvantage.

Some of you might think getting BIS stuff is easy to get but for a whole bunch of us it is pretty much unattainable so those parses are very interesting. Say what you will but finding 2k-7k will always remain far easier.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't know, they removed ton po's, nerfed moss covered twig into irrelevance and even the RFS became the IFS and so on, somebody dropped the ball somewhat bit yeah, I guess the general idea still remains.

But like jimjam said, lack of chain/plate and weight restriction pretty much relegated them to shit gear during most of kunark. Now you'd think shit gear was a drawback but in the end being non gear dependent is a boon more than anything else... Then velious came and flipped the script on its head, pretty much removing the "drawback".

On another note I just wanted to thank OP for sharing his findings. Everyone says 2handers are leagues away from 1handers but from my napkin math it was pretty close and wondering if I was crazy. The parses show 2h still do better for his content but it is probably much closer when you compare an IFS vs AC/Epic + SOS. I'm partial to 2handers but people going 1handers aren't at a big disadvantage.

Some of you might think getting BIS stuff is easy to get but for a whole bunch of us it is pretty much unattainable so those parses are very interesting. Say what you will but finding 2k-7k will always remain far easier.

Just because someone doesn’t have BiS doesn’t mean they shouldn’t objectively pick the best option available to them.

I can’t remember the last time I was impressed by a monk and an epic/sos. A Peacebringer on the other hand has surprised me. That’s a 500p weapon every monk can and should at least own past level 30. The parsing at 60 on challenging stuff just has these 2h’s running further ahead unless you have at minimum priceless fists.

Unlike real life, there is far less subjective truth in EQ. It’s just a big calculator with a fantasy theme. Like Crede said, people are overthinking this. Or worse, they know the right answer but are trying to justify the worse one to be quirky (only to get out-dpsed by mage water pets).

[Goregasmic]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just because someone doesn’t have BiS doesn’t mean they shouldn’t objectively pick the best option available to them.

I can’t remember the last time I was impressed by a monk and an epic/sos. A Peacebringer on the other hand has surprised me. That’s a 500p weapon every monk can and should at least own past level 30. The parsing at 60 on challenging stuff just has these 2h’s running further ahead unless you have at minimum priceless fists.

Unlike real life, there is far less subjective truth in EQ. It’s just a big calculator with a fantasy theme. Like Crede said, people are overthinking this. Or worse, they know the right answer but are trying to justify the worse one to be quirky (only to get out-dpsed by mage water pets).

100% agree but if someone wants to use 1h because reasons, it isn't a major disadvantage for that content, at least not as much as some think. AC + BoRS/SOS is probably shines a bit more when you're stuck tanking or dealing with casters...

But yeah, peacebringer is nice, staff of battle is 250pp if you're on a budget or want something 28% lighter and wu's QS like 75pp. Monk has so many good cheap 2hb options at this point, especially for leveling pre 40s, it would be crazy to pass them up. Just carry a wu stick to keep 1hb leveled and then at 60 you can broaden your horizons if you feel like testing stuff.

Most of that stuff is already figured out but your circumstances may vary. "Trust but verify" doesn't hurt especially when all those weapons are sub 5kpp.

[jolanar]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't know, they removed ton po's, nerfed moss covered twig into irrelevance and even the RFS became the IFS and so on, somebody dropped the ball somewhat bit yeah, I guess the general idea still remains.

The twig isn't a monk only weapon and the RFS wasn't a very good weapon except for leveling up a twink low level monk. The replacement IFS is a better weapon.

As for Ton Pos, who knows why they removed it, it's not even really much better than a Tstaff unless I'm just missing something.

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Some of you might think getting BIS stuff is easy to get but for a whole bunch of us it is pretty much unattainable so those parses are very interesting. Say what you will but finding 2k-7k will always remain far easier.

Agree with this. Some act like getting raid gear is something you just log and and do like farming a fine steel weapon. In reality the majority of players will never make it to 60 before quitting, much less get quality raid gear.