Potential changes to the way CHA works for enchanters

[bilirubin]

Originally Posted by Tann [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To be fair making it more risky to charm would raise the skill ceiling no?

Is there any proof that it's not classic on p99? "How I remember it" ain't proof, as I've been told numerous times about bard swarming.

The argument that CHA should not affect charm duration assumes the original spell developer, Geoffrey Zatkin, gave false info when asked about this mechanic in 1999 as well as Niente, a more recent developer, in 2018.

[Izmael]

To be fair, we don't know if the CHA changes may affect charm viability. Maybe the plans are that the average charm duration will still be about the same as it was with 255 CHA or something like that.

Even then it would be an unfortunate change as it would remove complexity from P99 and make it "shallower". I like P99 to be as complex as possible with eternal debates about the roles played by stats such as CHA or AGI or whatever. It's part of what makes EQ great.

[Jibartik]

Im sure that they will be easier now with bigger mana pools.

Lull is pretty integral to my enchanter gameplay so maybe it wont change much at all, idk.

[Tann]

Bargain bin amateur internet detective here but relevant??:

https://web.archive.org/web/20040124...60&Action=View

[Samoht]

Why would this be a nerf to charm? As it is, charm has several checks per tick for resist, cha, mr, etc. If you remove the CHA check, that's one less chance to break.

If anything, this just means less reliance on CHA end-game. Time to trade CHA gear for INT/HP.

[Tann]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you remove the CHA check, that's one less chance to break.

if an npc no longer has to roll a saving throw against your 255 charisma then that's a win for them I would think, not the enchanter.

[bilirubin]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why would this be a nerf to charm? As it is, charm has several checks per tick for resist, cha, mr, etc. If you remove the CHA check, that's one less chance to break.

My understanding was that the addition of a charisma check gave an additional chance for the charm not to break, thus making them (in general) last longer if you have high charisma.

[Jibartik]

It's pretty obvious when you are not wearing CHA gear as an enchanter so I imagine it will be like that.

It is by no means an issue when you're afk for 28 minuets of a 30 minuet timer, but it is obvious.

[Vivitron]

Here's the tl; http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/sho...d.php?p=266999, and here's the dr's:

Originally Posted by Torven

CHA did not affect charm durations prior to the patch and it still does not.
Pets with 0 MR have the exact same break chance as before.
Depending on the pets's level relative to the charmer, in some circumstances charm will hold less often and in other circumstances charm will hold better than before. (because of the +4 level mod)

I based the previous charm break logic on a data sample I had personally made on AK in which I knew I was very diligent in keeping debuffs on the pet, and that sample just happened to be extremely average so I had a good guess already. If however your pet's effective MR is anywhere from 6-11, you'll get more breaks. ('effective MR' meaning the MR after level advantage debuffs etc is factored in)

and

Originally Posted by Haynar

I have been asked to add this to p99. That will be a big change for them.

There's a whole lot in the tl including an explanation of why they believe these are the correct mechanics, and a bunch of non-charm mechanics, and I haven't fully been through it.

For charm, I think the two main questions are: 1. How does the minimum per-tick break chance compare before and after, and 2. How hard is it to get to that minimum compared to before.

For 1, based on my logs I think the minimum per tick chance is maybe moderately lower on P99 than on TAKP if that, (e.g. leading to ~6 minute and change average charms instead of ~5 minute and change). I don't think this change will be particularly painful.

2 is less clear to me.

Cha: I think cha is currently acting like a negative resist mod; and that you get one negative resist per probably every 10 or every 8 cha after 75, and that cha is probably either hard capped at 200 or 255 with no soft cap. Call it an extra -12 to -22 resist; it may be that you end up needing a couple negative mr items where you didn't previously, or it may be that we were already overshooting the resist floor on most of our charms.

Levels: The tl describes a +4 level bonus for charm checks and a -40mr bonus cap for charm checks; I wonder if P99 had either or both of these. The mr adjust for levels (described both in the tldr and consistent with EQEMU source) is that level difference squared divided by two is the resist adjust. So if we had neither the cap nor the bonus a level 60 would get a -50mr bonus on a level 50 mob. But a level 60 with a +4 bonus and no cap would get a -98mr bonus (14^2 / 2). My guess is P99 has neither the cap nor the bonus currently. If that's the case we could be in about the same place on, say, a boltran's charm at 60, (previously (60 - 53) ^ 2 / 2 = -24mr adjust, now (64 - 53) ^ 2 / 2 = -40 (capped) mr adjust, that's -16 mr gained; which is roughly what we lose from the removal of the per-tick charisma adjustment.)

Now, when Haynar says he's been asked to add this to P99 I wonder what is included in "this", because there are a bunch of non-charm mechanics in that tl. The biggest that I saw so far is this: "mobs 6 levels and under below the caster will never aggro [from lull]". That would be a significant buff; some of the high plat solo spots have trash mobs that cap out at level 53.

Edit: My tld;dr: I wouldn't be surprised if we see average "easy charm" duration go from ~6.5 minutes to ~5.5 minutes; or if some few specific charms need a piece or two of -mr gear that they previously didn't, but I would be surprised if we see effects on charm larger than that.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

l. The biggest that I saw so far is this: "mobs 6 levels and under below the caster will never aggro [from lull]". That would be a significant buff; some of the high plat solo spots have trash mobs that cap out at level 53.
.

Doesn't TAKP's chosen era post-date the Luclin-era Lull revamp? If so then their lull mechanics are irrelevant to those used on P1999. Granted, once in awhile P99 adds nonclassic post-era changes in an effort to curb abuse (ie, like rooted dragons).