RAID SUSPENSION RESOLUTIONS

[azeth]

hi morons, rotate everything.

end.

[FatBalloon2]

This is all solved VERY VERY easily.

Every single petition results in a ban for either the guild who submitted the petition for a false petition or the petitioned guild for a violation.

In real life, I can tell my kids to not do something 100x, but if I don't enforce some level of punishment and accountability, not only will they not stop, they will literally increase the number of times they do it.

[Dreenk317]

ya, i dont understand why we dont expect people to play by the rules of real life. If i constantly call the police for no good reason, I GET ARRESTED!!! If i constantly file petitions, for no good reason, I SHOULD GET BANNED!!

[Grumph]

I mean - having some higher stakes for GM involvement is a great idea I think.

I think a 1 week automatic ban at stake to one, the other, or both parties would have a great effect on relations. GMs would probably feel more respected. And guilds would respect each other more. Win win win.

But the issue with that is:

GMs rn seem to be saying “y’all figure something out - bc we’re tired of dealing with it fam”

(But wth do I know? I don’t have read access to UN)

...so telling the GMs “hey! Here’s what YOU need to do to fix this!”

Is kind of a backwards approach isn’t it?

[Fammaden]

Do you guys really think every petition is simply that cut and dry? There's a lot of grey areas, a lot of give and take, a lot of interpretations of the rules, a lot of misunderstandings.

This idea of punishing "wolf calling" belies an underlying belief that there's specific entities who are more guilty of frivolous petitions than others, and I truly don't believe that to be the case. Every petition can be argued by either side convincingly, this stuff isn't ever as simple as we'd like it to be and the evidence is notoriously hard to evaluate.

There's simply no objective way to say someone's acting in bad faith, most of the questionable petitions tend to be questions of intent, which is nearly impossible to determine, rather than something that you can immediately call an outright lie or bad faith petition. Additionally, with the long delays involved in the process of ruling on these things a punishment is not as significant of a deterrent. Behaviorally, its well established that punishment doesn't work for shaping when its randomly applied and the longer its delayed from the target behavior.

"You will find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" — Obi-Wan Kenobi, Return of the Jedi.

[Dreenk317]

Originally Posted by Fammaden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do you guys really think every petition is simply that cut and dry? There's a lot of grey areas, a lot of give and take, a lot of interpretations of the rules, a lot of misunderstandings.

This idea of punishing "wolf calling" belies an underlying belief that there's specific entities who are more guilty of frivolous petitions than others, and I truly don't believe that to be the case. Every petition can be argued by either side convincingly, this stuff isn't ever as simple as we'd like it to be and the evidence is notoriously hard to evaluate.

There's simply no objective way to say someone's acting in bad faith, most of the questionable petitions tend to be questions of intent, which is nearly impossible to determine, rather than something that you can immediately call an outright lie or bad faith petition. Additionally, with the long delays involved in the process of ruling on these things a punishment is not as significant of a deterrent. Behaviorally, its well established that punishment doesn't work for shaping when its randomly applied and the longer its delayed from the target behavior.

"You will find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" — Obi-Wan Kenobi, Return of the Jedi.

When a guild is currently engaged in behaviour that they petitioned you for the week before. You point this out, and there response is "we know the rules, your wrong".... Should be an automatic ban, because either they clearly cried wolf the week before, or are intentionally breaking the rules right now. And this exact scenario comes up almost every week.

It very often is that cut and dry/ black and white

[Toomuch]

To start off with, I'd like to thank the (VOLUNTEER) staff for trying. This game is something that a lot of us really like, waaaay too much, so we all get really emotionally invested. Every now and then, when the fit's hitting the shan with server drama, I step back and realize that it's all being managed by volunteers. As players on the server, we've got to do better. What exactly can we do, and how, are the questions we need to answer together.

1. Personally, I strongly agree with the "Cry Wolf" punishments being increased, substantially. I'm thinking we need to not make it quite as harsh as the actual penalty for violating the raid rules, or at least have it start 1 step lower, and then progress similarly? Example: First Cry Wolf offense = official warning, 2nd Cry Wolf = 2x concession on that mob, 3rd Cry Wolf = 1 week zone-wide ban, 4th Cry Wolf = 1 week blanket raid ban, 5th Cry Wolf = 1 month blanket raid ban. If no Cry Wolf petitions have been submitted in the last 3 months, then it resets back to 0.

One of the most frustrating things to deal with, whether it's in a game or in life, is hypocrisy.

Originally Posted by Dreenk317 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When a guild is currently engaged in behaviour that they petitioned you for the week before. You point this out, and there response is "we know the rules, your wrong".... Should be an automatic ban, because either they clearly cried wolf the week before, or are intentionally breaking the rules right now. And this exact scenario comes up almost every week.

It very often is that cut and dry/ black and white

This point is huge. This is rampant right now. There are indeed some bans worth handing out in relation to this, I'm 100% certain.

Now, this isn't to say we should throw out the FORMAT for how to submit petitions. The current format (well written documentation) is probably for the best. We just need to make 100% certain we're cutting out all the BS for the staff, and ensure that we're trying to resolve it ourselves.

2. My next point is something that's out of our control though, and I'm throwing it out there for context, for both players and staff to see: there has never been a time when the server had more level 60's ready and willing to compete for top-tier content. Or in other words, there's more level 60 "mouths to feed" that want to see top-end content, then there has ever been before. By nature, there's going to be increasing competition, and probably some associated hard feelings, when there's more and more people going after the same number of things (or DECREASING number of things, when you account for no Warders in game anymore, and a seeming decrease in the average number of quakes in the last year or so). It's literally economics: the supply isn't increasing, if anything it's decreasing, and the demand is definitely increasing. In economics, what does that do to the price of goods? (spoiler: the price goes up.)

Some more context on the people involved:

Some of these level 60's are those types of players that have been slowly leveling for years, never had drama with anyone ever, never submitted a petition ever, have casted 1000 rezzes and/or ported 1000 people for free, etc, and are finally 60, and feel they truly are deserving of some top-end content, as they've been the "server good-guy" for as long as anyone else, if not longer.

There are others that are undeniably more hardcore. They've been level 60 and raiding on p99 for so long that they can tell you the differences between the management styles that each of the GM's have had. They've done their homework on all the raid encounters, know how to race to mobs the fastest, know every corner to hide behind to dodge AE's but still be in range to land heals, are constantly swapping characters based on the location or needs of the raid, and are always on the leading edge on how to handle each encounter in a new/better way to beat the competition. They feel like they are deserving of the top-end content, because they put in the prep-work, beat out the competition for it, etc.

And then there's all kinds of variations of people in-between, but everyone wants their slice of the pie.

So, what does all this *mean*? Do we rotate 100% of the top-tier content, and take the competition out of it? I don't know. That doesn't seem like Classic EQ to me, but neither does having 400+ level 60's ready, willing, and/or literally sitting there waiting to go after the same raid boss when it pops. I think I like the idea of rotating some things, sometimes, essentially expanding on what's been done with Plane of Fear golem rotations.

Should we cry and whine and moan for a way to add more top-tier content, to offset/meet the demand? Even if it were nicely requested or voted on by the masses in the most thoughtfully worded essay/poll, would that even have any affect? If we prove we can play nice, would this even be considered, as a reward of sorts? I don't know. I'd sure like to know though.

[kaizersoze]

Harsher concessions idea - No more concede 2 on a single target - apply to entire zone. For places like TOV this becomes a way to make sure people are MUCH more careful with their trains, to the point they wont sit their raid force on another raid force at all most likely unless absolutely necessary. No more of this, we wait on top of them for them to clear the trash then run in stuff.

Anti leapfrogging - 20 minute lockout on FTE as soon as you feel your raid force is ready to engage in that time. Be it killing adds, figuring out kites, whatever, 20 minutes to get your shit together or lose your FTE and another guild can engage. That's the time between statue / AoW and basically all turn ins like Zordak so why not make it universal?

Rotation proposals -

ST- Just give one guild ST every week who can kill there and rotate it. Dont worry about individual golems on X day under Y circumstance because Z killed them last time. Dont make it over complicated, make it simple. Its 24 hour windows for mobs that 99% of the time drop only plat. Gross.

Tunare - If you can actually clear growth ON YOUR OWN within 10 hours, you get a rotation slot. Every third week give the option to let guilds who cant do it on their own band together to try.

Ring war - Rotate if you can clear it. If you cannot start it within an hour of pop, let the next guild in line know and they can take that one, and you will be given your shot at the next one. This keeps the respawn almost as fast as possible for more ring 10s.

Leave everything else as is. This work for everyone? :P

[Fammaden]

Originally Posted by kaizersoze [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This work for everyone? :P

I might be way off base and I'm at risk of beating a dead horse both here and in RnF now, but my impression is that we are causing far more headaches in NToV and very specifically on Vulak than anywhere else. Anything that doesn't solve this absurd and horrible meta in NToV doesn't really address the biggest problem we are facing IMO.

Rotate the stuff you mentioned too, it all makes sense to rotate, in fact those encounters make the most sense to rotate. But if there's one other place in the game that needs some compromise and changes in the way raiding works its the inner ring.

[kaizersoze]

Originally Posted by Fammaden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I might be way off base and I'm at risk of beating a dead horse both here and in RnF now, but my impression is that we are causing far more headaches in NToV and very specifically on Vulak than anywhere else. Anything that doesn't solve this absurd and horrible meta in NToV doesn't really address the biggest problem we are facing IMO.

Rotate the stuff you mentioned too, it all makes sense to rotate, in fact those encounters make the most sense to rotate. But if there's one other place in the game that needs some compromise and changes in the way raiding works its the inner ring.

I attempted to leave some competitive aspects in as a compromise to full blown rotation since some people live and die for the competition. I think it's pretty fair to both parties and makes some of the shitty things like clickfest RW go away.