NPC Push

[Pringles]

Originally Posted by Detoxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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From Torven

"Our channeling code was very old stock EQEmu code pulled out of the air and was inaccurate. NPCs play by different rules. (old Rashere comments verify this) I went on Live just to see how it's done there and I could not interrupt a level 12 NPC wielding a combine dagger + efreeti standard after 30 minutes of melee and 330 casts. Of course they aren't pushed there, but the hits themselves trigger rolls. That NPC regained concentration 100% and most hits didn't trigger a channeling roll at all. I also tried casting push spells which prevented nothing.

AK logs were used as my primary source as you would expect however. Interrupts were possible but rare and extremely rare at high levels. Some examples:

level 73 ranger NPC
Emmerik Skyfury begins to cast a spell. (150)
Emmerik Skyfury regains concentration and continues casting. (18; 12%)
Emmerik Skyfury's casting is interrupted! (1; 0.6%)

level 70
Cazic Thule begins to cast a spell. (269)
Cazic Thule regains concentration and continues casting. (45; 16.7%)
Cazic Thule's casting is interrupted! (12; 4.5%)

level 67
Auliffe Chaoswind regains concentration and continues casting. (36; 23.3%)
Auliffe Chaoswind's casting is interrupted! (no sign of stun) (2; 1.3%)

level 66
Praesertum Matpa begins to cast a spell. (53)
Praesertum Matpa regains concentration and continues casting. (15; 28%)
(no interrupts)

NPC stun immunity is actually somewhat rare. If you find stun immune NPCs that look like they shouldn't be, you should probably bring those to my attention. I fixed some erroneously flagged NPCs in vexthal yesterday.

Bash can still interrupt stun immune NPCs, btw.

PC channeling is now using code found in a client decompile, so the accuracy on that is rather high. In fact it indicates that the channeling focus AA is so good that it leaves me wondering, but it's such strong evidence that I can't ignore it."

"Regarding NPC cast interrupts and push/displacement: The lull thread in general forum has some of the data I collected on this. TLDR of it is that I found zero evidence for it and plenty against it. A Sony dev stated that NPCs do not use channeling skill. The vast majority of NPC casts never show a 'regained concentration' or interrupt message and simply cast through melee. Dragon punch (3 unit push ability) never interrupting NPCs + monks complaining about no interrupt (dual wield class). NPCs on raids successfully casting all of their CH spells and logs just plain showing NPCs getting spells off through hordes of melee-- particularly stun immune level 66+ raid NPCs with success rates upwards of 99%. Lots of mana draining on ToV raids in these logs.

It makes little sense to me anyway for raid NPCs to not get spells off simply because your enchanters and SKs make pets, your wizards chain cast level 12 DDs, and paladins face the same wall. Some raid boss spells have cast times, and it would trivialize the fight to shut them off. If pushing then only worked on non-raid mobs, then what sense does it make for them to have coded some push threshold of like 4+ units before any sort of check is done? PCs have a location check for casts to prevent them from being bards; NPC AI can simply be coded to stop so they never needed location checking in the first place."

The problem with trying to do internet archeology, at this point, is that some people have figured out how to decompile old clients and get actual data to work with, rather than relying on humanity's hyperbolic memory.

You can find most of the reasoning for this change here: https://www.takproject.net/forums/in...changes.12968/
https://www.takproject.net/forums/in...14-2018.12991/

[Zipity]

These posts imply that bard mana drain should also be unresistable in line with the enchanter line to help drain raid targets. Would make sense and be nice.

[Izmael]

Wait a second, are we really arguing whether or not pushing an NPC used to interrupt its casting back on live?

Everyone who played EQ back on live knew that and witnessed it first hand. I'm not even sure why this is being discussed. "Walking" caster raid mobs around by having everyone push from behind and the tank directing it was done by all or most guilds to prevent CH's, gates and such. Pure melee mobs were often pinned by having the tank in a corner where possible.

[Croco]

This is also 100% wrong, monk knockback ability (wasn't a disc) that eventually gets introduced absolutely did interrupt casting.

I remember being overjoyed when I got this skill as I had another tool outside of just push spam to use to interrupt mobs that CH'd.

[Jimjam]

I can confirm that there is a small chance to successfully interrupt NPCs on hit.

I succeeded in doing this on a level 30 warrior using a single magic 2hs hit and a kick against Trazdon in Najena.

Methinks the chance to interrupt on hit may be a little too low if it took this many months for me to observe it :S

[LazyHydras]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can confirm that there is a small chance to successfully interrupt NPCs on hit.

I succeeded in doing this on a level 30 warrior using a single magic 2hs hit and a kick against Trazdon in Najena.

Methinks the chance to interrupt on hit may be a little too low if it took this many months for me to observe it :S

Yep! There is and has always been a small chance to interrupt an NPC via a melee attack regardless of whether or not the NPC moves - but it is a very small chance, hardly reliable or replicable. Interrupting a mob via push (moving it spatially across unit tiles) is now impossible.



My whole point is that the developers overshot the mark. Instead of making NPCs "less susceptible" to push, they have made them literally immune to spell interrupt via push.

[LazyHydras]

Galach kindly moved my post to the correct sub-forum. Sorry about that - was in the wrong forum this whole time! Hopefully a dev can take a look at this and make the necessary fix.

[LazyHydras]

Originally Posted by LazyHydras [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Galach kindly moved my post to the correct sub-forum. Sorry about that - was in the wrong forum this whole time! Hopefully a dev can take a look at this and make the necessary fix.

That was over a year ago, lol. Hope springs eternal, I guess.

[Stonewallx39]

Adding melee push back into the game would be a substantial improvement, both for quality of life and to align with classic mechanics. It adds an element of teamwork to get all the members of a raiding party or group to work together to interrupt casting and by the Velious era melee push was certainly known and a tactic often in use.

[LazyHydras]

Yea, I'd really like some kind of acknowledgment just that this is being looked at and will be fixed in a soon-to-come patch. Would add some kind of peace of mind.