Concerning cameras

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by soronil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not sure what's wrong with your client, but my green beta client behaves exactly as blue has always behaved:
Mousewheel zoom out.
Mouselook (hold right mouse button) + move mouse left / right = heading changes
Mouselook (hold right mouse button) + move mouse up / down = camera angle changes
Mouselook (hold right mouse button) + keyboard left / right = strafe

This is the EXACT behavior that the patch notes descibe as being introduced in 2001. It is not classic and it makes the game MUCH easier, because:

3rd person gives you more situational awareness
classic 3rd person had the disadvantage of being very clunky to control

So in classic, 1st person vs 3rd person is a trade off. Many people played 1st person. The way p99 is now, 3rd person is really superior for all but immersion.

You do this in top down and chase modes? I know this is how it works in 1st person and mousewheel 3rd. We know the latter isnt classic. I started this thread talking about the f9 modes and THEIR adjustments.

On green beta right now, chase mode mouselook up+down didn't change camera angle. It moves the camera up and down vertically. Mouse wheel doesn't affect either top down or chase cameras. Etc.

[soronil]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You do this in top down and chase modes? I know this is how it works in 1st person and mousewheel 3rd. We know the latter isnt classic. I started this thread talking about the f9 modes and THEIR adjustments.

On green beta right now, chase mode mouselook up+down didn't change camera angle. It moves the camera up and down vertically. Mouse wheel doesn't affect either top down or chase cameras. Etc.

there are 6 modes that i toggle through when i press f9, i don't know what all of them are called. The first 3(first person w/mousewheel, high up, right behind) all have the same behavior that I do not think should be classic in any but 1st person mode.

[Tecmos Deception]

F9 modes = first person, top down, chase, user defined 1, user defined 2, and some tracking camera.

I'm gonna go ahead and believe that you didn't just log into green and test these things in the way I just did. Mouse wheel doesn't affect zoom on top down or chase. Mouse look via right click and moving the mouse up&down does change angle on top down, but changes camera height, not angle, on chase camera.

I don't know what "first person w/mousewheel" means to you. First person is first person. Top down is what happens when you're in first person and press f9 once. Chase is a second f9.

Going into third person from first person via mousewheel isn't classic and isn't one of the f9 modes and doesn't have the exact same controls as the other modes on green right now.



I guess there's a small chance you did double check your results like I did and somehow we have different camera behavior. But I doubt it, one way or the other.

[soronil]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

F9 modes = first person, top down, chase, user defined 1, user defined 2, and some tracking camera.

I'm gonna go ahead and believe that you didn't just log into green and test these things in the way I just did.

I did, in fact.

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mouse look via right click and moving the mouse up&down does change angle on top down, but changes camera height, not angle, on chase camera.

But in both, it allows strafing and changing heading. One could argue "angle" has an intentionally different meaning in top down. Either way, the behavior is MOSTLY what is being described as introduced in 2001 (not classic)

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't know what "first person w/mousewheel" means to you. First person is first person.

It means that today, on green beta, the first (default) f9 mode is first person, which allows you to use mousewheel to zoom to third person. hence the name i gave it. I think we both agree what this mode does and that it's not classic and should be removed.

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I guess there's a miniscule change you did double check your results like I did and somehow we have different camera behavior. But I doubt it, one way or the other.

Based on patch notes these patch notes from 2001:

Mouselook will now work a little differently when in the first two third-person camera modes (overhead and chase). They will work similarly to first-person mouselook (i.e. your character's heading will change when you move the mouse left or right, the left and right movement keys will cause your player to strafe, and the camera angle will pitch up or down when you move the mouse forward or back).

I would argue that first person, overhead, and chase are all currently not classic, and need to be changed such that:
First person -> remove mousewheel (introduced outside of our timeline)
overhead -> heading does not change using mouselook. mouselook+left/right movement does cause strafing (introduced september 2001)
chase -> same as overhead. Also does not change camera angle angle when mouselooking up and down

[Tecmos Deception]

How are you concluding that the current camera functions aren't the way they worked before this patch, excepting the mouse-wheel transition from 1st to third person?

Mouse wheel doesn't work in top down. Mouse wheel doesnt work in chase. Right-mouse-click + forward&backward mouse movement doesn't change angle in chase; it moves the camera higher or lower on the same vertical line with no change in angle the camera is pointing. Those are pretty significant differences.

The patch notes you provided only talk about how the camera works AFTER the notes. And what green does now is fairly different from that. I get your claim that it's similar, but it's not the same, so I don't see why it would be safe to make assumptions. How are you coming to your conclusions about how the camera should behave prior to the patch you mentioned if not a guess?

[soronil]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How are you coming to your conclusions about how the camera should behave prior to the patch you mentioned if not a guess?

Logic. If the patch notes say that a mode was changed to change your heading while mouse looking, that most certainly means that the mode previously did NOT change your heading while mouse looking. Seems binary enough to me.

[Ashenden]

All of this is cool but remember our primary goal should be to get mouse wheel third person removed, then we can argue about how all the F9 cameras should or shouldn't be more terrible.

Forced first person or awkward cameras that slide around in unintuitive ways when you right click for life, enjoy your 4:3 /viewport or suffer from bad vertical FOV.

[soronil]

Originally Posted by Ashenden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All of this is cool but remember our primary goal should be to get mouse wheel third person removed, then we can argue about how all the F9 cameras should or shouldn't be more terrible.

Forced first person or awkward cameras that slide around in unintuitive ways when you right click for life, enjoy your 4:3 /viewport or suffer from bad vertical FOV.

The issue is that chase view, when zoomed out, with the 2001 behavior, is very similar to the mousewheel 3rd person behavior... The differences being that you use ins/del to zoom in and out... and that mousewheel + mouse up/down raises/lowers the camera instead of changing angles ( was actually wrong about that one above) . But the main thing is that I do not think there should not be a 3rd person mode in which you can change the heading of your character or strafe with mouselook. that's what makes 3rd person very "usable" when running around and what make things easier. Just eliminating mousewheel does not sufficiently nurf 3rd person.

[Ashenden]

Sounds good to me. TAKP has the newer old behavior for its cameras, but someone with access to EQClassic could probably tell us what it's like on there for each one.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by soronil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Logic. If the patch notes say that a mode was changed to change your heading while mouse looking, that most certainly means that the mode previously did NOT change your heading while mouse looking. Seems binary enough to me.

I mean, except for the fact that the adjustments in question are demonstrably NOT binary... then sure, you'd be making sense.

Mousewheel from first person zooms out here, but not in classic. But mousewheel doesn't zoom out on other cameras in classic OR here.

Mouselook and up+down in top down view and chase was changed from an unknown (which could include "doesn't do anything at all") in classic, by the patch you mention, to changing the angle of the camera. It doesn't do anything in top down here, and it does something entirely different in chase mode (raising or lowering the camera, but not the angle of view).

Here, mouselook side-to-side in those two views does turn you, and the directional keys do strafe, as your patch notes suggest classic was changed to.

That's quite a garble of stuff. It is far from "logical" to decide that things are "binary" when we have an examples of it NOT being so right in the stuff we're talking about.