not cool, nilbog!

[soup]

Originally Posted by Messianic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Don't worry, I definitely didn't take it as complaining. I just explained it in case you were unaware...And its totally valid to point out the distinct differences between the classes, yet somehow they get the same penalty. It is dumb. But our hindsight is really clear, whereas the original creators were probably just trying to keep people leveling at the same pace and nurture the social aspect of the game. But they couldn't accurately predict which classes would be the most powerful, which I find hilarious.

The being unable to predict what classes would be most powerful is an interesting bit. It seems like it should be so obvious to them looking back with hindsight as well as having the knowledge of all kinds of other games, but I guess if you think about it they didn't really have crap to base anything on to be able to reallllly figure out how things would go.

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by Messianic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This has been explained to death, but basically the original EQ code paid a kind of homage to the D & D concept of hybrids; when the EQ versions of hybrids were actually weaker than the pures they attempted to splice, the devs (after a long time) just recognized them as regular classes with strengths/weaknesses just like the pure classes they emulated, but not any stronger, so not needing any kind of exp penalty.

However, the exp penalty is a part of the classic experience and it doesn't need to be whined about anymore.

Guess what?

Pickpocketing isn't classic in its form.
Pets don't melee faster with low-delay weapons.
Dot stacking

Etc.

Classic argument has failed. Stop using it.

This is "quasi classic" and the sooner people accept it for that, the better. Cherry picking classic mechanics and ignoring others arbitrarily makes it so. You can't use the "but it's classic" statement, at all. It isn't universal.

I obviously still play here, and enjoy it a great deal, but let it fucking die with the "it's classic" bullshit.

[korrowan]

You are taking this far too seriously. Why so srs?

Originally Posted by Harrison [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Guess what?

Pickpocketing isn't classic in its form.
Pets don't melee faster with low-delay weapons.
Dot stacking

Etc.

Classic argument has failed. Stop using it.

This is "quasi classic" and the sooner people accept it for that, the better. Cherry picking classic mechanics and ignoring others arbitrarily makes it so. You can't use the "but it's classic" statement, at all. It isn't universal.

I obviously still play here, and enjoy it a great deal, but let it fucking die with the "it's classic" bullshit.

[Abysis]

Just reroll mage/enchanter/necro and be quiet. Thats what everyone else does.

[Messianic]

Originally Posted by Harrison [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Guess what?

Pickpocketing isn't classic in its form.
Pets don't melee faster with low-delay weapons.
Dot stacking

Etc.

Classic argument has failed. Stop using it.

This is "quasi classic" and the sooner people accept it for that, the better. Cherry picking classic mechanics and ignoring others arbitrarily makes it so. You can't use the "but it's classic" statement, at all. It isn't universal.

I obviously still play here, and enjoy it a great deal, but let it fucking die with the "it's classic" bullshit.

I think you entirely misunderstand the "its classic" line of thinking i'm describing. Let me interpret for you, since you seem to be taking what I say hyper-literally.

"It's classic" or "Its a part of the classic experience" means "as classic as possible within any inherent limitations, including but not limited to developer staff manhours, priority shifts, implementation problems, lack of knowledge, or other reasons."

Basically, I'm saying that wherever something is "inconsistent," there's a reasonable or pragmatic reason it's not that way - even if that reason is purely because the devs don't want to bother fixing the inconsistency or simply don't care enough to fix it (and for very minor or unimportant issues - I sympathize).

But the "it's classic" line of thinking isn't completely invalid just because in some cases things do not work exactly classicly - and could be implemented, but aren't. The Classic experience *still is* the guideline for nearly everything on the server, and although I don't have specific links or explanations for the ones you've provided - every "inconsistency" i've read has been thoroughly explained by Nilbog at least once. Because every single time an inconsistency arises, it is explained rationally and sufficiently, I generally assume there is a specific reason it has been left "unclassic." Even if that reason isn't a specific implementation or knowledge problem. Just because I don't know the specific explanation does not then relegate the "the reason things are X is because of an attempt to mirror the classic experience" line of thinking to being invalid.

Would it make you feel more fuzzy and warm if I changed my words to say "It follows the general parameters of the classic experience, within a limited set of parameters" every time I want to say "it's classic" or "part of the classic experience?" Is that exact enough for you? Because the reason the exp penalty still exists really is because it mirrors the classic experience. That's a fact. Nilbog could remove it, but he specifically said he left it there because it was "part of the classic experience."


Now that i've spent all of that time to explain it - can you see why people consider what you're doing nitpicking?

[Massive Marc]

Originally Posted by Messianic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think you entirely misunderstand the "its classic" line of thinking i'm describing. Let me interpret for you, since you seem to be taking what I say hyper-literally.

"It's classic" or "Its a part of the classic experience" means "as classic as possible within any inherent limitations, including but not limited to developer staff manhours, priority shifts, implementation problems, lack of knowledge, or other reasons."

Basically, I'm saying that wherever something is "inconsistent," there's a reasonable or pragmatic reason it's not that way - even if that reason is purely because the devs don't want to bother fixing the inconsistency or simply don't care enough to fix it (and for very minor or unimportant issues - I sympathize).

But the "it's classic" line of thinking isn't completely invalid just because in some cases things do not work exactly classicly - and could be implemented, but aren't. The Classic experience *still is* the guideline for nearly everything on the server, and although I don't have specific links or explanations for the ones you've provided - every "inconsistency" i've read has been thoroughly explained by Nilbog at least once. Because every single time an inconsistency arises, it is explained rationally and sufficiently, I generally assume there is a specific reason it has been left "unclassic." Even if that reason isn't a specific implementation or knowledge problem. Just because I don't know the specific explanation does not then relegate the "the reason things are X is because of an attempt to mirror the classic experience" line of thinking to being invalid.

Would it make you feel more fuzzy and warm if I changed my words to say "It follows the general parameters of the classic experience, within a limited set of parameters" every time I want to say "it's classic" or "part of the classic experience?" Is that exact enough for you? Because the reason the exp penalty still exists really is because it mirrors the classic experience. That's a fact. Nilbog could remove it, but he specifically said he left it there because it was "part of the classic experience."


Now that i've spent all of that time to explain it - can you see why people consider what you're doing nitpicking?

Way to get owned, then try and spin what you said earlier. good job. someone has spent sometime on a forum before....Harrison, annoying as he may be, is correct... Using the "It isn't classic" argument is getting fucking old when so many elements in p99 aren't classic.

"No, I mean It's semi, kinda,sorta, almost, near, not exactly,as humanly possible, part of the classic experience"... give me a break.

[nilbog]

Originally Posted by Harrison [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Guess what?

Pickpocketing isn't classic in its form.
Pets don't melee faster with low-delay weapons.
Dot stacking

Etc.

Classic argument has failed. Stop using it.

This is "quasi classic" and the sooner people accept it for that, the better. Cherry picking classic mechanics and ignoring others arbitrarily makes it so. You can't use the "but it's classic" statement, at all. It isn't universal.

I obviously still play here, and enjoy it a great deal, but let it fucking die with the "it's classic" bullshit.

Well, 2 of those issues on your list are known (pets and dots), and will be/are being worked on. I'm not sure what you are referring to about pickpocket. We don't have a huge team of eq developers that can fix any problem on a whim. We slowly add features as fixes are presented or written from scratch. If you want to see them corrected faster, make a detailed bug report about it, so we do not have to put in a week of research on top of fixing it.

Whether you want to believe it or not, the 'it's classic' reasoning still works for me. See, if it was an option to completely and totally revert this to classic, we'd flip the switch, and everything you might mention wouldn't be arbritrary. You wouldn't have item links or different UI possibilites. We do the best with what is available.

Few things I wanted to add to your list, that I want fixed and hopefully we can:

-stamina bar working
-lulls classicized
-sneak pulling
-alcohol effects working properly
-npcs charming PC pets
-PCs charming PCs

Things we might never see due to client:

-qeynos citizen 'gypsy' models
-brown skeletons
-message board functionality
-no medding without spellbook until lvl 35
-sea king and siren's bane non-hollow boat models

Use those examples for the next 'its not classic' list, because I'd like to see them changed as well. If we would change it, but can't or haven't yet, does that still support your argument? When there's nothing left to do source-wise, I'm sure you can still use the client issues. We have a list of our own that we work to correct.

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, 2 of those issues on your list are known (pets and dots), and will be/are being worked on. I'm not sure what you are referring to about pickpocket. We don't have a huge team of eq developers that can fix any problem on a whim. We slowly add features as fixes are presented or written from scratch. If you want to see them corrected faster, make a detailed bug report about it, so we do not have to put in a week of research on top of fixing it.

Whether you want to believe it or not, the 'it's classic' reasoning still works for me. See, if it was an option to completely and totally revert this to classic, we'd flip the switch, and everything you might mention wouldn't be arbritrary. You wouldn't have item links or different UI possibilites. We do the best with what is available.

Few things I wanted to add to your list, that I want fixed and hopefully we can:

-stamina bar working
-lulls classicized
-sneak pulling
-alcohol effects working properly
-npcs charming PC pets
-PCs charming PCs

Things we might never see due to client:

-qeynos citizen 'gypsy' models
-brown skeletons
-message board functionality
-no medding without spellbook until lvl 35
-sea king and siren's bane non-hollow boat models

Use those examples for the next 'its not classic' list, because I'd like to see them changed as well. If we would change it, but can't or haven't yet, does that still support your argument? When there's nothing left to do source-wise, I'm sure you can still use the client issues. We have a list of our own that we work to correct.

Pickpocket issue I am speaking of is being able to pick pocket droppables from mobs. You can't pickpocket things you were able to in classic.

I don't personally care about it, but I'm just using it in the argument about classic.

Like I said, and I'm sure you know, I am 99% happy with this server and the work you guys have done. I'm just confronting the "it's classic" and "it's not classic" argument from players answering in your guys' stead.

[karsten]

dude, nilbog

















































not cool

[bled12345]

the reason why knights have such high EXP penalties, is because they are hybrid, and they have the best of both worlds!!!


an SK at level 50 can serve as a tank, AND gets to cast level 29 necro spells!!! zomg win.



seriously though, pure melee is pure melee, and pure caster is pure caster... hybrids get to do a bit of both, and that is why they were penalized.