Socialized Medicine - Let's Discuss!

[Danth]

Just in: A forum full of healthy 20- and 30-year olds, most of whom have never faced serious illness, exhibits little understanding of why socialized health care is beneficial to society as a whole. While unfortunate, it's also typical and fully expected.

Swish and Lune get it. Society shouldn't just toss a person out to the trash heap because he got permanently disabled at work and can't do his job anymore. How this nation treats the sick, elderly, and infirm is outright shameful. Medical bills are one of the leading causes of bankruptcy in the United States even among people with insurance. Many families are one serious or unexpected illness away from financial ruin. The present system we have in this country is hideously broken and in many cases, outright sociopathic. We can do better as a nation. We don't, because healthy people outnumber sick people and everyone's vote counts the same. Sigh.

You want all able-bodied people to work? Problem: The United States already has an oversupply of workers, and that problem will grow worse over time, not better. You think it's bad today, just wait a couple decades when automation starts eliminating truck drivers and warehouse workers and many service jobs. It's coming. What do you do with all these redundant people? Ignore 'em because you don't care if it isn't happening to you? I find that mindset distasteful. You either make work (TVA round two?) or accept that an increasing number of perfectly fit people simply won't be needed as part of a shrinking labor force.

Socialization of some form is the future, like it or not. The real question is whether we choose to maintain ourselves a nation worth living in, or wind up with some form of "Soylent Green" hellscape. Fixing our health care system is one step of many we'll have to take.

As an aside, I opposed the Affordable Care Act, and still do. It's at best a band-aid which fails to address the core problems inherent to our system.

Danth

[big_ole_jpn]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just in: A forum full of healthy 20- and 30-year olds, most of whom have never faced serious illness, exhibits little understanding of why socialized health care is beneficial to society as a whole. While unfortunate, it's also typical and fully expected.

Swish and Lune get it. Society shouldn't just toss a person out to the trash heap because he got permanently disabled at work and can't do his job anymore. How this nation treats the sick, elderly, and infirm is outright shameful. Medical bills are one of the leading causes of bankruptcy in the United States even among people with insurance. Many families are one serious or unexpected illness away from financial ruin. The present system we have in this country is hideously broken and in many cases, outright sociopathic. We can do better as a nation. We don't, because healthy people outnumber sick people and everyone's vote counts the same. Sigh.

You want all able-bodied people to work? Problem: The United States already has an oversupply of workers, and that problem will grow worse over time, not better. You think it's bad today, just wait a couple decades when automation starts eliminating truck drivers and warehouse workers and many service jobs. It's coming. What do you do with all these redundant people? Ignore 'em because you don't care if it isn't happening to you? I find that mindset distasteful. You either make work (TVA round two?) or accept that an increasing number of perfectly fit people simply won't be needed as part of a shrinking labor force.

Socialization of some form is the future, like it or not. The real question is whether we choose to maintain ourselves a nation worth living in, or wind up with some form of "Soylent Green" hellscape. Fixing our health care system is one step of many we'll have to take.

As an aside, I opposed the Affordable Care Act, and still do. It's at best a band-aid which fails to address the core problems inherent to our system.

Danth

oh look, an "argument" for socialized healthcare based entirely in emotion and moral high-horsedry. The form of retardation you exhibit is why we can't have conditional socialized medicine for the deserving (those in whom an investment profits the state) in a society with unconditional suffrage.

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Society shouldn't just toss a person out to the trash heap because he got permanently disabled at work and can't do his job anymore. How this nation treats the sick, elderly, and infirm is outright shameful.

I know you've heard of workman's comp. Why, then, did you put these two sentences adjacent unless you are attempting some disingenuous appeal to emotion? Do you write Common Core curriculum?

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Of course all individuals aren't equally beneficial to society, but one of the core principles of our social contract is that we aren't going to kill you or let you die simply because you are injured, weak, or otherwise helpless*

*Ideally

To do otherwise would be anarchy.

Could you elaborate on the bolded piece a bit? I don't see how the former can only occur in anarchy.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To do otherwise would be anarchy. Our constitution and the political philosophy that underpins it guarantees the same rights to the weak as it does the strong. It's reasonable to take care of the weak because even strong people often experience a period of weakness or vulnerability when they must rely on others, and not letting them die is a net positive for society.

Why/how is caring for productive people during temporary periods of lessened/no productivity equivalent to caring for people who are indefinitely unproductive?

That is akin to saying that because employers may choose to pay employees for missed work days when they are sick, employers should pay anyone who is sick whether they work or not. And no, that is not the same as a pension because pensions are paid to employees who have worked and they are paid as incentives to attract the best employees (though they are not offered much at all anymore). Governments do not have the luxury of being so selective with its citizenry.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For example, when we enacted Medicare and Social Security in the 1930's, the US decided we would rather not be left to die if we find ourselves elderly and low on resources, sometimes through no fault of our own (A market implosion for example, Great Depression). We figured it was reasonable that we should protect the old, and expect the same protection when we are old. It's still an extremely popular (if mismanaged and poorly executed) idea, and neither party can touch medicare or social security without sinking their career.

Of course we would rather not be left to die. That is self interest. It's why we exist. How does our continued existence subsidized by others benefit humanity though? How is it a productive use of society's resources?

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't know if you thought this was a thought provoking question or something, but it's just a ridiculous, simplistic way to try and frame the issue of socialized medicine.

Dismiss it if you like. As I said to Fash though, I'm looking for answers and be it ridiculous or simplistic, it's an honest question. I am not sure what I think the answer is, though I am inclined to believe both are equally selfish.

[MrSparkle001]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just in: A forum full of healthy 20- and 30-year olds, most of whom have never faced serious illness, exhibits little understanding of why socialized health care is beneficial to society as a whole. While unfortunate, it's also typical and fully expected.

You mean it can be beneficial, so long as everyone in society contributes to it. When not everyone does you wind up with situations like the US has now, where people are forced to purchase insurance for $300/month with a $5,000 deductible to subsidize the leeches.

As an aside, I opposed the Affordable Care Act, and still do. It's at best a band-aid which fails to address the core problems inherent to our system.

The core problem inherent to our system is the cost, not the amount of people insured. Forcing them to purchase insurance (unconstitutionally, I don't care what the Supreme Court says) does not address the cost, it only guarantees insurance companies retain a profit.

I ever tell you guys about the $1,800 I was charged to have a bandaid changed?

With social security you pay into it now and get out of it later. It's ultimately unsustainable as it is right now, but not many are leeching off it. They paid into it over the course of their workable years.

Not so with this Affordable Care Act. Now leeches everywhere can get "free" health care at the cost of everyone else who are getting extorted to pay for it.

[fash]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Consider the fact that more egalitarian, more collectivist cultures with a strong safety net (Germany, Japan, Denmark, Australia, Netherlands, etc) perform better in nearly every metric for human quality of life than the more individualistic, sink-or-swim United States.

More importantly, these countries are ethnically homogeneous. We're talking 80-90% majority ethnicity, except Australia, which is still 90% white but with different ethnicities, English, Irish, Scottish, etc. That homogeneity means a great deal when it comes to building a high trust nation. Compare that to US's slightly above half white demographic.

Calling Japan's culture egalitarian is a stretch. I'm not sure about the Netherland's culture wrt egalitarianism.

[Bazia]

as a US citizen I have zero issues with a free market healthcare system

[Bazia]

in fact i prefer the system where I'm not forced to pay for other irresponsible people's healthcare

[Pokesan]

Originally Posted by Bazia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

in fact i prefer the system where I'm not forced to pay for other irresponsible people's healthcare

do you not know how insurance works?

[Bazia]

Originally Posted by Pokesan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

do you not know how insurance works?

If my opinion differs from yours I must not understand the subject!

Good day sir

[Pokesan]

Originally Posted by Bazia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If my opinion differs from yours I must not understand the subject!

Good day sir

opinions are different than knowledge. i did not comment on your opinion, i questioned your knowledge.

my good chum