Where is the quest in Everquest?

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by zeroaster [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hey,

I've searched briefly through a few pages of posts, I haven't seen anything on this one yet - I'm sure there is already something posted - of which I would be glad to have links to those threads if anyone can offer them.

Now that we have a chance to make this experience a little more based on the server consensus than before, doesn't it seem right that quests should be worth something in EQ? I've played several different MMORPG's in the last few years and while all of them lack what EQ has, many of them had corrected an inherent problem with EQ. It's all grinding. And quests barely give any exp for completing them.

I think that it's a brialliant idea to gain 1/2 a level or even 1 -2 yellow at lvl 32(for example) from completing a quest - based on that to complete each quest there is already several hours of waiting/killing.

Keep in mind I understand that it's important to keep leveling at a relatively slower pace than is happening in the other EQ, to extend the experience and not have a bunch of lvl 50 noobs.

I feel that giving at least somewhat of an exp bonus would truly open up EQ's mythology/story and for those of us(at least myself) that already have several(dozen) high level chars accross 2-3 EQ accounts (this server and sony) - and I think it can be somewhat agreed upon that many of us would like to spend time adventuring for a reason rather than mindlessly grinding exp until I wake up with my F5 key stuck to my forehead.

I love the way everything is happening now - just an idea to make EQ a fuller experience in my opinion.

- Miguel what do you doing ah? What is this water maan?

There's a lot about 1999-02 EQ that isn't just old, it's obsolete and even mediocre. And it's not just the graphics or the sound quality. Everything from the pathing mechanics (they don't move around very well and often times what you think is a good pull ends up in disaster because it ran off in the opposite direction) to the targeting (sometimes it's quite hard to target what I want without targeting what I don't want) to the quests (i'll explain) to the UI (hey, it was pretty bad, customization was pathetic and there were many functionality issues that could not be changed even by customizing) to the stat system (yes, it was pretty bad too... i recall reading some developer talk that it was basically thrown together like a chemistry experiment) and so on and so forth. I really don't want to drag on this paragraph. I think everyone else here knows what I'm trying to say.

Now, the quests. The problems with the quest system are more fundamental than just increasing the amount of experience you get as a reward. First of all, why do I feel compelled to go to allah or to the web to find quest information? Because EQ offers up so little information and many times the information is buried in a conversation tree on an obscure non-player and other times you just have to be lucky enough to find the non-player (to talk to) or monster (to kill) in order to progress the quest. I'm not asking for hand holding, I'm just asking for a more intuitive system and something that's not so obscure that it requires me to constantly ask in /shout or /ooc or in a chat channel what I need to do next to find what I need. The conversation needs to be more interactive too (i like playing detective).

I don't really like quest journals all that much or automatic hand holding. Nor do I like automatic conversation trees. As in, you type a highlighted keyword or click on it. I prefer to talk to the non-player naturally as I form in my mind what the quest is and what the clues and keywords might be. It feels more hands on that way. I've done that in MUDs before and it's much more self-engaging. The automatic stuff tends to make quests automatic and then it all feels rushed to me because it's the completion of the quest that becomes hte goal as opposed to the detective work. Why? I think because as a user i haven't peiced together what he quest is. The hand holding does it all for me so in my mind it's a very loose unconnected set of things. It's like living life one moment to the next as opposed to thinking ahead and anticipating the challenges and participating directly.

But it's not just the automatic hand holding schemes that have ruined quests for me in other games. I've been playing DDO and it has basically an automatic system in place and while you can read things (to make it feel like it's manual) almost no one does consistently. And to be frank, it's a quest grind once you've already played through it on solo (normal difficulty) mode. I've enjoyed the quests when I solo them because i can take my time and go at my pace, but I hate being alone!! So I get into a group (this is in ddo) to not feel alone and everything is rushed like morning traffic in new york because no one wants to wait for people to get absorbed into the story and details. Rush rush. Everyone tries to keep up with the fastest members so the objectives can be completed. It's not fun that way. Honestly, people talk about how much better some quest are in other games, but often times it's as much a grind as EQ ever was. Got to be honest. At the same time, they do often give quests a much fairer chance and no one can say that's true in 1999-02 EQ.

And another thing. I tend to be 50/50 or 75/50 in favor of combat versus quests. I tried an older single player RPG named Planescape: Torment. It's supposed to be a quest-based RPG 75/25 in favor of quests (instead of combat). I have to admit that I got extremely bored playing it. Most of the content can be gotten through without ever using your weapon. Personally, I like to hack my way through a wall of mobs sometimes. And I like to write my own story, do my own things. I don't like to feel like a plot is directing me or something. I prefer to make my own plot. And in a game that's directed so heavily (such as planescape), it's more like reading a book than it's a true adventure. I'm not saying slaying thousands of monsters is a true adventure, but rather that so called quest-based RPGs too often end up being plot-driven and too linear and no fun for me.

Maybe I'm not the best person to ask about something like this since I already lean in the direction of dungeon crawls and hack/slash adventures and shoot-from-the-hip conversation (good old fashioned detective work). There're a ton of people out there that love plot-driven games and linear missions/quests and an END to the story. I'm not one of them. Does this pertain to this topic? A little bit, I think so.

So even though I'm biased in favor of deep adventure in a scary dungeon and don't like to be pulled by a quest chain, I still think I can recognize when a quest system is undernourished. And I think the one in 1999-02 is undernourished. I'm trying to be balanced. Yes, it looks very mediocre and bandaged up and obsolete.

But I think we should just leave it the way it's. Remember, this is EQ in 1999-02 and making it anything else is missing the point. If you want that, do it yourself. I think it's good for us to discuss all this and I admit I think the quest system in EQ sucks eggs, but this server is here to represent the way EQ was not the way we want it to be. History is there to read and explore and appreciate (for nostalgia), not to change it. Get it?

And.. I wanted to add this before leaving this topic for now. When I have dreams about game worlds and treasure and dungeon crawling there's one things that always is there. MYSTERY. INFINITY. INTERACTION. Those 3 words sum it up in my mind. Very generally, I need to be able to try whatever I'm thinking of. Don't give me a limited set of options. Just let me have at it. I want to try everything imaginable. I want to find trap doors, I want to find secrets, I want to go on paths others haven't, I want to see and do things I never even knew I could despite thinking I knew it all. I want a non-linear experience, bottom line. I don't want to be led by the collar by a developer. I want to cleave my own path using my own means and tools. I want UNLIMITED.

[odizzido]

One of the things wrong with post wow MMOs is the quest leveling. It makes grouping really hard because you would need to be on the same quests as the other group members. Finding one person who is at the same stage for all 15 quests in the area is hard enough, but finding a whole group is just impossible.

I think quest leveling has ruined the multiplayer part in MMO and turned it into a MSO.

[Kich]

If the keywords weren't highlighted, then the way to initiate the conversation would have to be way more simple. Getting information out of some NPC's can come down to literally, phrasing a certain sentence perfectly with no alternative. It's annoying that some conversations can't be continued unless you figure out the whole sentence they want you to say. Keywords needs to be emphasized.

Particularly, in Kaladim trying to get the aviak chick talon quest, I mean obviously you can just hand them to him, but if you want to actually go through the whole conversation, you have to be extremely thorough in how you respond to him (I tried about 14 variations of the exact same sentence before I got through to him). And I'm sure many others.

I'd be fine if they removed the []'s so long as the conversations were such that, if you just said one of X keywords, it would follow through in that regard.

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by odizzido [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

One of the things wrong with post wow MMOs is the quest leveling. It makes grouping really hard because you would need to be on the same quests as the other group members. Finding one person who is at the same stage for all 15 quests in the area is hard enough, but finding a whole group is just impossible.

I think quest leveling has ruined the multiplayer part in MMO and turned it into a MSO.

Or what if you group with someone at the same stage but they've already done it before or on an alt? They're rushing through it and not going at your meager pace. You have to keep up to not frustrate them and complete the objectives in a timely manner. This comes at the cost of fun and adventure. It's weird because I enjoy soloing the quests to absorb all of story and details, but I hate hate being alone. I haven't managed to retain that same appreciation for the quest and sense of adventure in a group. While I like being with others, it just isn't enough. So here I am unsure of whether this problem will ever go away in DDO since I don't see any change up and coming. Will DDO always be like like that? Never able to be fully happy?

I find myself wishing that the dungeons in DDO were random. At least we would all be on equal grounds and NOT rushing ahead expecting everyone to keep up. I think that's one thing Diablo I/II/III does right. It helps to keep everyone in the party somewhat new to the content you're doing. No one can monopolize it. On the other hand, it's kind of shallow sometimes because the stories and quests can't be random equally well. I don't know of a quest/story random generator that can compete with a level random generator. We're not there yet.

Then there's also the issue that not every person absorbs information equally well. So one person is on page 5 while the other person is still on page 1. So the guy in page 1 is pushed by the other group members to skip to page 5 in order to keep up with the pack. So even if we do randomly generate the content, it cannot entirely eliminate this problem of not having everyone on the same page so they can equally enjoy the experience. It's really a problem unique to multiplayer worlds. In single player you can go at your own pace and not rush.

Sorry if this didn't directly tie into what you're saying. I think it does somewhat.

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by Kich [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If the keywords weren't highlighted, then the way to initiate the conversation would have to be way more simple. Getting information out of some NPC's can come down to literally, phrasing a certain sentence perfectly with no alternative. It's annoying that some conversations can't be continued unless you figure out the whole sentence they want you to say. Keywords needs to be emphasized.

Particularly, in Kaladim trying to get the aviak chick talon quest, I mean obviously you can just hand them to him, but if you want to actually go through the whole conversation, you have to be extremely thorough in how you respond to him (I tried about 14 variations of the exact same sentence before I got through to him). And I'm sure many others.

I'd be fine if they removed the []'s so long as the conversations were such that, if you just said one of X keywords, it would follow through in that regard.

What I want and what's possible are two different things. They just DON'T have natural language parsers that can do this speedily. It's far easier to do what's being done now. It's conservation of energy. Still, I enjoyed playing the detective in some of the MUDs I played. There was no conversation window nor did the conversations list any options or [] for keywords. Most of the time it worked because MUDs very generally do this type of interaction much better than new MMOs, but what you say is true.

I can still think back to when I played some EARLY action adventure games in the 1990's. Basically, I'd see a screen with my character. Kind of like Myst. Then i'd type things like "get tea cup" or "unlock door" or "open cupboard" or "look at picture" or somethign to that effect. It was very fun and I was amused at that variety of things I could get out of it. It wasn't so much what you saw on screen, it was the variety of things you could think of asking or trying that were NOT seen on screen! It was a form of interaction not easily translated to a mouse because it was deeper than the number of pixels on the screen. There was something about it that made it feel like I DID IT. It's the difference between being given a list of options you can try on an item or questions you can ask a character and, constrastingly, creating the options or questions ON YOUR OWN.

One of the "action adventure games" was The Adventures of Maddog Williams:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adv...ns_of_Duridian

I also wish that voice chat was 3d so that if marcus says "Attack the green guard!", I know that he's behind me and to the right and recognize his voice so I know who he is. I don't know if any MMOs have that, but just highlighting their name when they're speaking isn't enough for me. I realize that for some people this wouldn't work (some people are deaf in one ear or hard of hearing) and when the speaker is far away it wouldn't work either. Perhaps it could be an option, or maybe what they say could also be speech-to-text translated and put on screen so there're two sources of speech available in case one isn't clear for whatever reason.

(I already only understand probably 50% of what's said in voice chat because volume is low on their end)

[Uthgaard]

Originally Posted by Kich [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If the keywords weren't highlighted, then the way to initiate the conversation would have to be way more simple. Getting information out of some NPC's can come down to literally, phrasing a certain sentence perfectly with no alternative. It's annoying that some conversations can't be continued unless you figure out the whole sentence they want you to say. Keywords needs to be emphasized.

Particularly, in Kaladim trying to get the aviak chick talon quest, I mean obviously you can just hand them to him, but if you want to actually go through the whole conversation, you have to be extremely thorough in how you respond to him (I tried about 14 variations of the exact same sentence before I got through to him). And I'm sure many others.

I'd be fine if they removed the []'s so long as the conversations were such that, if you just said one of X keywords, it would follow through in that regard.

How easy it is to interact with an NPC comes down to how well the EVENT_SAY portion is written. If it's too hard to interact with an NPC, it means the if() is way too specific, and, that's the kind of thing that people don't make bug reports about.

if($text=~/i want to destroy the krag chicks/i || $text=~/I will destroy the krag chicks/i){

That means you have to say either one of those two sentences, to the letter. When I do EVENT_SAY, I try to put as much thought into making it as intuitive as possible for the player.

Here's a line from Weaponsmith Grugl in cabeast. The pikes are referred to numerous ways in quest text and item names. Footmans pike, footman's pike, footman pike, etc. Written like this, as long as someone spells footman and pike right, it doesn't matter if they tell him they want the footman'z motherfucking pike.

if(($text=~/footman/i) && ($text=~/pike/i)){

But don't think that it has anything to do with what's in brackets. Those are really just there to coach you along.

[astuce999]

My only gripe with classic quests in EQ was that so many of them were broken, you could spend hours if not days trying to figure out something only to get stuck in a dead end.

If only the EQ staff would have been more open in confirming quests and verifying if they were working or broken when people reported it, it would have really helped a lot.

One thing I would have really enjoyed would have been a once a week post by devs that show a quest that hasn't been solved. They could start by giving hints and then players would have tried to complete them and then post the rewards and such. The devs claimed there were thousands of unsolved quests so it should have been fairly easy to post one per week.

They could have taken suggestions from players on which quests they would want solved.

For example, my holy grail quest that was never solved or completed is the unkempt druids.

In surefall glades, Gerael Woodone talks of the leader of the unkempt druids Jale Phlintoes.

---------------

You say, 'Who is Jale Phlintoes?'

Gerael Woodone says 'Jale Phlintoes was trained in the ways of the Jaggedpine Treefolk since his birth. He was only eight when his parents were killed by poachers. Young Jale would have had his throat slit also if he were not off fishing at the lake. Unfortunate. The now orphaned Jale was brought up by us druids. After many conflicts with our council, he ran off to start his own sect somewhere in the nearby lands. For his terrorist activities his head now brings a high price.'

----------------

It took years on sony's part but they finally admitted there was a bug and Jale Phlintoes was not spawning in south karana when the trigger phrase was said to the hermit.

Now he spawns.... but he never drops his head when killed. It is likely that if the quest is actually working, you have to give him something so that he despawns and respawns as a new mob with his head as loot. But there's no way of telling if it's actually working.

Judging from the difficulty of the quest and its similarities with other quests, especially Stanos's Head, I've come to speculate that the reward for his head would have been the Troll Illusion Mask (bard/rog). The other reason I thought it would be that reward is because they had done all the player races, and were doing tons of non-player races but had yet to do a troll illusion mask/instrument.

But I'm now just rambling ;-p

thanks for indulging me.

cheers!