Knights: Decent or Garbage?

[myriverse]

This thread is racist.

[Wabic]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Anyone with a sow potion and a bladestopper?

Sow pots don't work indorrs. You chopped that part off the quote. I got ya Daladen.

[Daldaen]

Warriors snap aggro blows. They're awful for groups that are plowing through content. And extremely awful with groups taking on multiple mobs at once.

Warriors not getting procs and losing aggro to a DPS or healer and letting them die will slow down a group far too much. The DPS differential between Warrior/Knight isn't huge enough to warrant that risk.

Rampage obviously isn't about taking aggro, it's about staying alive. Not having to devote a warrior to this role is nice so you have more depth in your MT list. In general on raid mobs, a Knights role is to always be 2nd in aggro/top of rampage list. IE when mob is incoming all Knights throw a spell at the mob so the rampage list is 1-5 Knights. Likewise for the main aggro list they should know how many aggro spells they can cast to be underneath a full mallet spam and continually cast aggro spells throughout the fight so that if a tank goes down, the mob switches to a knight and has a few rounds on him before another warrior takes over and the CH Chain stabilizes on that warrior, instead of allowing the mob to rip through clerics or DPS.

If you think training won't be important... I'm going to say you're wrong right now. Probably not for NToV (though... Who knows people may just glitch out pathing in some spots.) But You can bet your ass no one is going to clear to Tormax or clear to Dain or clear to Zlandicar. There are going to be trains or CotH races everywhere. Bladestopper SoW'd person is nice but each SK and Paladin bring the most survivability (behind warriors) and several utility tricks (DA/FD + Heals and Roots) that will make them solid. In many places you will have to take a hit or two when gathering a train, and these are the classes best suited for this.

[kaev]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only case when Knights really shine is when your group sucks. If the monk is terrible and the SK splits, then great. If the Enchanter can't CC and the paladin is rooting and stunning, then great. But otherwise, Warriors and Monks are just better. If the group is humming, then the extra dps of the warrior means more XP, and if the group is taking on tough stuff (= seb protector, EToV) then the superior HP/AC/discs of the warrior will give far better worst case performance than the knight's aggro spells.

There is truth behind the hyperbole there. But it's more about EQ group content not really requiring 6 good players. One or two in key roles who're clueful and the rest willing and able to take a bit of direction and avoid being bad and you're good to go 99% of the time. In a truly solid group my paladin is boring to play, unless we get massively trained or the chanter/bard goes LD right as a sizeable multi-pull hits camp I might as well be a warrior doing better damage. On the flip side, playing my cleric with a solid paladin tank is a complete snoozefest unless the rest are willfully ignorant morons or we get a train dumped on us.

Everything is relative tho. Go Shaman + Enchanter with Ranger tank (chanter pulls), grab 3x Rogues to kill and you can tell all the warriors, knights, and monks "sorry group full."

[Raev]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Warriors not getting procs and losing aggro to a DPS or healer and letting them die will slow down a group far too much.

Rogues never die in vaguely competent XP groups, and healing will never pull aggro off a warrior.

Originally Posted by Daldaen

If you think training won't be important... I'm going to say you're wrong right now.

That's probably because you are too confident in your assumptions. What if Kael is depopulated by XP groups? What if the GMs start dropping the banhammer when those XP groups get trained?

Originally Posted by Kaev

But it's more about EQ group content not really requiring 6 good players.

What's strange to me, though, is that as the group size shrinks the Knights don't really get better even though they are nominally more versatile.

Anyway, I don't think Knights are terrible as much as I think Warriors are underrated. A big part of this whole 'Warriors are shit in groups' myth comes from leveling with Warriors with the standard noob combo (Yak Scimitar/Skean) and terrible dexterity. Reality is that warriors are gear dependent, but once you get the gear they are absolutely destructive: nearly as much DPS as monks, solid threat, massive hp/ac, and when you overpull you just hit evasive and you need maybe 1 CH in the next 3 minutes. I mean I played an *iksar* warrior and he was very strong IMO, so I can only imagine when it would feel like to play a full cobalt/crown of rile/etc ogre.

[Cecily]

Cobalt / ogre probably not too different. Kunark gear is terrible. The big deal in exp groups is weapons for warriors. Something with high agro even without the procs is what you need. Unfortunately, you aren't exping once you get something like that. No AAs kills this server.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A big part of this whole 'Warriors are shit in groups' myth comes from leveling with Warriors with the standard noob combo (Yak Scimitar/Skean) and terrible dexterity.

Mixed with DPS that starts nuking as soon as your arrow lands when you pull.

[Lune]

Fun fact, /who all 50 60 *class* count

Monk: 42
Warrior: 16
Ranger: 9
Shadow Knight: 14
Paladin: 7
Rogue: 19

Disgusting. Dear Haynar, if you read this, please find a way to nerf monks. They have the most delicious tears.

[kaev]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What's strange to me, though, is that as the group size shrinks the Knights don't really get better even though they are nominally more versatile.

Players on p99 pretty much refuse to see knights in any role besides tank. Most knights here never learn to pull well, it's hard to learn something you never practice. A paladin can do pretty well in a puller+CC role, but if you've ever got paladin & warrior together the only group deployment that is not immediately rejected is "paladin tank, warrior go zerker and dps". I mean, do these people not understand that the damned paladin can root the mob(s) to make warrior agro trivial and go start the next pull?

Anyway, I don't think Knights are terrible as much as I think Warriors are underrated. A big part of this whole 'Warriors are shit in groups' myth comes from leveling with Warriors with the standard noob combo (Yak Scimitar/Skean) and terrible dexterity. Reality is that warriors are gear dependent, but once you get the gear they are absolutely destructive: nearly as much DPS as monks, solid threat, massive hp/ac, and when you overpull you just hit evasive and you need maybe 1 CH in the next 3 minutes. I mean I played an *iksar* warrior and he was very strong IMO, so I can only imagine when it would feel like to play a full cobalt/crown of rile/etc ogre.

It's funny sometimes grouping my warrior with careful casters, getting a proc on engage and then seeing root land always makes me want to giggle. But hell, if the shaman wants to root every mob before slowing I'm quite willing to pull out a 2hander and up the damage output. The overwhelming majority of warriors are never going to "get the gear" you're thinking of (mine's an alt, for instance), it's a cooperative game and a warrior's effectiveness as a tank is influenced hugely by the cooperation of their group. Necros & wizards that nuke on engage, rogues that can't even spell "evade" let alone use the ability, rangers & monks & rogues that equip weapons with agro procs or nuke procs, monks that can't be bothered to shed agro with FD... It does seem like few players here learn much of anything about agro management until/unless they get insta-gibbed a few times by Spiroc Lords.

[Raev]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=192166

You're welcome. Also Sneak already has two angle checks, with 0 evidence to support that change. But even with the classic nerfs and the non-classic nerfs, monks will still be tremendously op <shrug>