Interesting Class Changes

[Basenji]

A lot of that was probably intentional, too. I mean, clerics get a 10% bonus to every heal they cast, right? And that's in addition to having more efficient base spells at earlier levels. Clerics don't have a self mana regen spell because they don't need one.

That said I do agree with a lot of the idea. Sometimes I wish I could have classic EQ as the designers wanted before the problems with network, server power, and profit margins forced them to ship what we got. For example, Druids have a track skill cap of 50 on P1999 right now because that's what it was on live. But the reason for that was due to a client limitation that doesn't currently exist on P1999. So which is more classic? The actual server state or the developer's intent?

Originally Posted by Patch message from March 6, 2001

-- The tracking skill cap for Druids has been raised to 125. It was the intent for druids to be better at tracking than they were, however before the scroll bar, smaller skill numbers were often considered better. With the tracking improvements from the last patch, this increase was appropriate.

I really did like the WoW concept of CC, even if it was never really useful. Almost every class had the ability to CC one or two mobs at most, and they were limited to certain types. Then they put mixed types in dungeons and a good group would have had to work together to contain the pulls - which were agro linked. But after playing with WoW players, I'm very happy that the mobs were so easy that CC wasn't really necessary. It would have been a nightmare.

[Itap]

Luclin was a great expansion, it's the new character models that made me cringe

[Basenji]

It was never the models for me. It was the animations that came with them.

The biggest complaint I have about a lot of the balance from those expansions is that they were clearly implemented to fix problems in the older expansions. And instead of fixing them, they added them to the box on Luclin and charged $50 for it. Bard overhaste? That should have been a patch to the Ervaj line from Velious instead of a new line in Luclin. Endless quiver? That should have just been given to rangers at 60.

[Halius]

Yeah I guess I'm kind of arguing both sides now. I mean it would be cool for mages to have CC but I also want class separation. I don't want everyone to be able to do everything, it makes the game more fun relying on others for a balance.

I had no problem with the Luclin/PoP expansions either. I thought AAs we a nice addition that helped you progress without increasing the level cap. I always pop into live every couple months just to see my old warrior and cleric. I see all the fierce heraldic gear I spent so much time trying to get, only to be dwarfed by the damn defiant gear now. I mean the level requirement for Fierce Heraldic was level 45 and now level 10 defiant gear has better stats, that's just dumb.

Anyways back on topic.

[Swish]

Originally Posted by Halius [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah I guess I'm kind of arguing both sides now. I mean it would be cool for mages to have CC but I also want class separation. I don't want everyone to be able to do everything, it makes the game more fun relying on others for a balance.

I had no problem with the Luclin/PoP expansions either. I thought AAs we a nice addition that helped you progress without increasing the level cap. I always pop into live every couple months just to see my old warrior and cleric. I see all the fierce heraldic gear I spent so much time trying to get, only to be dwarfed by the damn defiant gear now. I mean the level requirement for Fierce Heraldic was level 45 and now level 10 defiant gear has better stats, that's just dumb.

Anyways back on topic.

They really screwed up live. With a bunch of staff changes and just snowballing stats for the sake of "its a new expansion"... same thing happened to WoW. Used to shoot arrows for 200-300, now its literally 20,000 or 50,000 or whatever. Numbers don't mean anything if they're continually scaled up like that.

[Halius]

Originally Posted by Swish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They really screwed up live. With a bunch of staff changes and just snowballing stats for the sake of "its a new expansion"... same thing happened to WoW. Used to shoot arrows for 200-300, now its literally 20,000 or 50,000 or whatever. Numbers don't mean anything if they're continually scaled up like that.

I always hated that, but I mean what else can they do to keep people interested? If you can't see improvement then what is the point of continuing to play? That is why I like the AA system, it was a way to progress your character without increasing the level cap and making it ridiculous.

I remember in WoW:TBC raiding with my 70 mage was awesome because I was spec'd in Fire and could occasionally get 10K+ crits with Pyroblast using talents. Last time I logged into wow (6 months ago?) I was on my warrior and getting 10-20k hits with my regular skills. It's just crazy how things change. I mean can't they make enemies "more difficult" without increases HP pools and damage, and instead adding in new bosses with more difficult mechanics?

[Erydan Ouragan]

Originally Posted by Halius [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I mean can't they make enemies "more difficult" without increases HP pools and damage, and instead adding in new bosses with more difficult mechanics?

Well if they do that without increasing damage, then players complain the mobs take too long to kill. That's why people whine vex thal was a snorefest.

If they add more difficult mechanics, they will complain too, because the average player just sucks. On WoW, people had a hard time understanding very simple, basic concepts. Like don't stand in the fire and hit the back of the boss to avoid cleave.

Fuck, on p99, despite being a 16 years old game.. Some people struggle with assisting the tank and step back a little bit when a mob is rooted.

[perditionparty]

Originally Posted by Erydan Ouragan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Fuck, on p99, despite being a 16 years old game.. Some people struggle with assisting the tank and step back a little bit when a mob is rooted.

no way maaaan, like you're just ruining the spirit of the game maaan. Like, these people who know how mechanics of the game work are just like ruining it for everyone else, ya know? like, don't ruin my immersion with your meta-knowledge - just play and have fun, wiping, death and corpse runs are part of the game. Like, why take time to learn about the game when it's just missing the point of this nostalgic love fest that should really be going on. like, class roles like tank, cc and healing is just a concept that came after everquest with games like snore of worldcraft maaan, people are totally missing the point of the classic game maaan. like, just play, have fun and who cares about game mechanics. People who actually learn the game just make me sick and I would never try to group with them.

[Swish]

I'd move the decimal point, don't know why that hasn't been thought of or used.

24958 becomes 2496 etc

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Any discussion like this needs to keep in mind, lots of classes get shafted in classic-velious. It's part of the game. The limits of all the classes are designed to incentivize social gameplay.

I like daydreaming too, but the weakness of a class is usually there for a reason, "go be social."

The alternative is every major mmo since everquest, which are all deathly afraid of making customers upset, and so make all classes able to more or less do everything. They should not even be called mmorpg's anymore, frankly. They are massively multiplayer online single-player games.

These are not "flaws." They are design decisions that reward social gaming.

I remember at one fan faire, they had a mock session on "Everquest and solo gaming." It was a joke: there were chairs set up, but no speaker, and no attendees.

It's a design intention to have areas of weakness. IMO, p99 actually already nerfs a lot of that -- bards, monk dps, charm, and a super-reliable invis come to mind. Overpowered, all four, because they erode or allow you to avoid the social design of the game.