Trackers in Agro Range of Raid Targets. Severilous last night, needs community input

[-Catherin-]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Fraps, or some other video recording software is always best in terms of evidence. When attempting to identify "how long" someone is sitting in a particular location, using the /time command is essential - more than once if using screenshots. I have absolutely no idea how long these people were standing on the spawn point because none of your screenshots show a server time. For all I know you and the TMO trackers were standing there for the same length of time, in equal violation of what you are disputing. You have to look at these things from our standpoint, which is that we don't trust anyone - the primary reason why we ask for thorough and clear evidence of any given dispute - and that the only way we can truly objectively mediate or rule on a petition/claim is to rely solely on this evidence when making a decision. Extra corroboration through other sources such as logs, matching testimony from opposing sides, and various other presentations, while helpful, must always be carefully scrutinized and matched to other more reliable forms of evidence, like video or even in certain cases, a screenshot (or 50).

I understand that you may feel frustrated that your evidence does not sufficiently corroborate your accompanying explanation, but hopefully this will give a better idea on what is considered thorough and clear evidence in the future. While it may be easy for players to pass judgement in circumstances like these, particularly in high-stakes - or even heated encounters like we frequently see in the raid scene - we as GM's have to scrutinize very closely every piece of evidence when a decision is required by us in order to ensure we are making the right call. These decisions often affect dozens if not hundreds of players and may impact future disputes - there is a lot of pressure and expectation for us to get things correct - even though that may not even be possible with the evidence provided. It may seem abundantly clear to you what occurred, but we are very rarely present for shenanigans as they take place, even though we wish that were possible, the raid scene is only one small - but important - part of P99 CSR and we have to balance all aspects of that in addition to our real lives, just like everyone else. This is why we have to receive as much detailed information as possible that provides a clear picture of the events that prove objectively beyond a reasonable doubt who is at fault before we are going to feel comfortable laying out something as serious as an entire guilds' inability to (essentially for a Class C guild and to some extent a Class R guild) play the game, potentially for weeks at a time. We are also abundantly aware that regardless of what we decide, there will always be people upset with our interpretation or implementation of the rules and the decision those rules lead us to - this truth has always caused us to do what we feel is right, makes sense, and is fair, even if that conclusion is not the "popular" one.

Once again, video is always the best bet - record in at least 720p or in whatever format shows clear nameplates, geography, etc. or it's use may be limited. Most video recording software will timestamp videos internally on their own, but it's always good to use that in-game /time command at the beginning or end of a video in order to establish when the video was taken - this is extremely important in helping us identify where exactly the video falls within the petitions timeline.

In this particular case, I feel that you had other options of gathering the evidence in your original post, that did not involve violating the very rule that you are claiming TMO broke. This is something that everyone needs to be very careful of to ensure that they are not themselves causing an infraction. That will, at best, give the violating guild something to use against you, or at worst, cause your guild to end up with the same punishment if one is handed down. "I didn't have any other choice" is very rarely, if ever, going hold any water or be considered a valid excuse.

Lastly, as I stated in my post, it is my interpretation - and likely Sirken's intent - that his statement be taken as a strong suggestion or even a warning that standing on a mobs spawn point will probably get you in trouble, as when a mob spawns if you are there and you get aggro, you've suddenly violated the tracker rule and may be subject to punishment. Generally speaking when we make a new rule - which is what is being implied was established in this post - the new rule is very clearly acknowledged as such, oftentimes reiterated by other staff members or otherwise clearly communicated as being "law", rather than included off-hand in a forum post. Again, as I stated, I could be wrong about this and Sirken's intent in that message, but generally speaking, when a new rule is created, or a new interpretation of a rule is clarified, Sirken and I take a significant amount of time to discuss this rule, oftentimes needing approval from Rogean in order to set it in stone (if it pertains to the raid scene, Rogean approval is almost always required for a new rule). Again, you'd have to ask him to clarify his intent, I am not the Lead-CSR GM.

As stated previously, this is my stance on the situation as well as recommendations for the future, with my former post giving suggestions on how to address concerns and disputes that will inevitably arrive down the road. I feel like I was fairly clear in my posts, and that all I did here was elaborate slightly on what was stated previously. I hope that this clarifies my meaning and that your questions were sufficiently answered. I have had busy week and look forward to an even busier week catching up with p99 work, so I may just be worn out and misinterpreting the situation. That's one reason why we have two GM's, and I'm sure Sirken will give his thoughts when he is able. In the meantime, Argh made a great suggestion in the Current Raid Scene thread near/at the end that could use some thought. I'd like to continue encouraging guilds to work together whenever possible despite potential animosity during encounters like this. I think, despite some negative attitudes, is an attainable goal.

Good luck!


~deru

Thank you!

[Derubael]

Originally Posted by -Catherin- [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thank you!

You are welcome. I hope it is more clear what Sirken and I look for when reviewing disputes that hace been unable to be resolved through player mediation, as well as why we require such detailed and thorough evidence before reaching a decision. Being descriptive and complete in your petition will also greatly aid in our ability to discern what took place.

On my list of things to do is a brief write-up outlining proper procedure when handling a dispute, from the infraction taking place through to a completed dispute. Hopefully this will make staff expectations for dispute mediation more clear

[Derubael]

Again, to make sure we are all on the same page, my personal interpretation of that particular statement by Sirken, based on how rule changes are usually made and information is disseminated among the Senior Staff - as well as the context of the statement and being fortunate to know how Sirken thinks, is that this was not a hard rule, and instead a suggestion.

I personally don't have any problem with implementing the aforementioned rule if you all feel that it's necessary (and don't just make your decision based on wanting to get TMO in trouble), then I don't see the harm, though the benefit doesn't seem to be huge either, and we should all keep in mind that the more rules we add, the more nuances and exceptions that new-comers to the raid scene have to be sure they don't violate. Maybe my trust in the average guild/raid leaders ability to read a bunch of forum threads or receive clear instruction from their peers is less than it should be, but I am already concerned at the increasing number of circumstantial or mob-specific rules that seem to be "needed" for guilds to stay in line. I think the "don't engage targets with your trackers" rule should already cover this one pretty thoroughly.

Most importantly, you will all need to wait for Sirken's clarification. He's also extremely busy this week and may take some time to respond, but obviously until he does, it is probably best to follow it as if it's a literal set in stone law just to be safe. I still find it highly unlikely that he intended to add more restrictions on where people can be and where they can't be, as this is something we really don't like setting limits on wherever we can avoid it - this is something we've both been pretty clear about, if not in public, than certainly in our own private discussions. As a final note, even if we are to assume that this rule is active and was active at the time of these screenshots, there still simply isn't enough here to corroborate Catherine's explanation or damn TMO to <insert community chosen torture here>. If people are getting FTE with trackers, even if they quickly die and drop aggro after it happens, people should start fraps'ing that and compile a thread here in raid discussion to highlight that it's an ongoing issue. If it's as large a concern as this thread seems to suggest, rather than one or two isolated incidents that can easily be mediated between guilds rather than force staff intervention, it's something we can deal with in a fashion that doesn't require the creation of more rules. I would greatly prefer this to the alternative - creating more and more restrictions and rules to try and enforce... rules that we already have in place.

[Sirken]

holy fucking nerds.

listen, essentially we (staff) are saying the same thing. if nothing pops i obviously dont care where people are, because no harm no foul. but if the mob pops and you have trackernerds on the spawn spot, their trackernerd will/should get aggro, and as such they would be breaking the "trackers can't FTE" rule.

its really getting ridiculous the way some of you are picking apart staff posts to benefit yourselves. all of the raiding guilds need to stop trying to game the system and play the game within the rules, or you're gonna have a bad time.

<3
Sirks

[Ella`Ella]

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

holy fucking nerds.

listen, essentially we (staff) are saying the same thing. if nothing pops i obviously dont care where people are, because no harm no foul. but if the mob pops and you have trackernerds on the spawn spot, their trackernerd will/should get aggro, and as such they would be breaking the "trackers can't FTE" rule.

its really getting ridiculous the way some of you are picking apart staff posts to benefit yourselves. all of the raiding guilds need to stop trying to game the system and play the game within the rules, or you're gonna have a bad time.

<3
Sirks

But do you lift?

[Sirken]

Originally Posted by Ella`Ella [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But do you lift?

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Artaenc]

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

holy fucking nerds.

listen, essentially we (staff) are saying the same thing. if nothing pops i obviously dont care where people are, because no harm no foul. but if the mob pops and you have trackernerds on the spawn spot, their trackernerd will/should get aggro, and as such they would be breaking the "trackers can't FTE" rule.

its really getting ridiculous the way some of you are picking apart staff posts to benefit yourselves. all of the raiding guilds need to stop trying to game the system and play the game within the rules, or you're gonna have a bad time.

<3
Sirks

How about the trackernerd that are not kos because they spent hundreds of nerd hours in mistmoore to get the faction? They can coth their taggers directly on top of Sev. Would that be acceptable?

[Derubael]

Originally Posted by Artaenc [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How about the trackernerd that are not kos because they spent hundreds of nerd hours in mistmoore to get the faction? They can coth their nerd--taggers directly on top of Sev. Would that be nerdcceptable?

ftfy.

Do you guys have your own established rule regarding the CotH'ing of players by tracker-mages when a target spawns? If no, there are no rules against this from a CSR standpoint. Sirken had specifically asked me if this was legitimate earlier and I was unavailable to respond but as I stated above, there are no rules against this at this time, unless those rules are player-made.

[Drakakade]

Honestly, I do not what is going on here anymore, because "That being said, it is absolutely not ok for trackers to be parked on raid spawn locations" did not have any qualifying adjectives like "kos trackers". Sirken's statement was clear: no trackers in range, and hence Taken (rightly or wrongly) being upset when they perceived a tracker(s) were in range.

Clearly, folks were trying to inch up on the mob, and rather than the refs calling off-side we are now all going to have to go faction in MM? First, let's give some props to the prediction on 07/14/2014:

Originally Posted by Komodon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You do realize this is going to be a nightmare to police across the board, right? Because with all due respect, instead of solving anything your solution here is to just trade one cheat headache for another imo.

Back to a drastically increased amount of frapsquesting i guess, and a constant need for "where was this guy parked" petitions (especially on those outdoor dragons).

Folks we need to put our egos aside here, because with this new interpretation to Sirken's tracker proximity rule all we have done is move poopsocking from a guild affair to a 2 man/guild tracking, 16 hour coh-ducking affair, with the factioned CoH tracker(s) winning the truncated poopsock... Was that the intent?

Do we really want to just limit the scale of poopsocking? I hope not. Next, think about those poor GT folks or Dojo guys when they were perplexed at the web of raid rules - now you want them to faction up a bunch of dedicated CoH trackers?

I suggest going back to the problem and seeing if we can fix the original issue: the ball first got moved when we allowed CoH FTE's. That spawned CoH ducking and 16 poopducksocking by 2 trackers. Now, we (possibly) are inching the ball a bit closer by allowing factioned coh duckbots... Can we agree to fix CoH ducking, and then this issue will go away? Trakanon can stay the same or we can all just clear down to Trakanon - whatever you guys prefer.

Next, and this is for the staff, who I want to thank again for putting up with all this BS lawyering, and for putting in their free time to police the mess. I know it is frustrating to make a rule and then have everyone pick it apart. It must feel like folks are nitpicking. However, I believe that communication via text is very difficult, and what is really happening is the raiding guilds are trying to fully understand the scope of the rule.

I would humbly submit that before any new rule is set in stone that you give the various guilds 1 week to do their rules lawyering best to see if they can find any loopholes / clarification so we don't have to go down this thorny road each time.

Secondly, and this is a shameless plug, I would like to start thinking about Velious, and start to hear about any new rules the staff would like to work on prior to release. And i do have a horse in the race: Ziglark Whisperwing. At some point fairly soon, can we sit down and discuss what potentially will be a mess in Velious?

Again, thanks for your patience, and effort on our behalf.

[-Catherin-]

C/R Rotation, 100% FFA on simulated respawns.

puts this problem to bed entirely.