Game Mechanics: Proximity Aggro

[Furniture]

Originally Posted by Skydash [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have a silly observation here that might be overlooked?
When you are rezzed into a group killing a mob, wouldn't you have Low HP agro?
Isn't that different then Proximity agro?
Sitting agro in the other example... different then proximity?

I can't recall the exact mechanisms after 14 years, but shouldn't we have it "Make sense" instead of just hacking on code to make broken mechanics?

It makes perfect sense. Don't res a player next to a mob, ever. Drag it away if you need to res during a fight.



I also am 100% in support of this change as it is one of the most non classic things about this server.

[Skydash]

Originally Posted by Furniture [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It makes perfect sense. Don't res a player next to a mob, ever. Drag it away if you need to res during a fight.
I also am 100% in support of this change as it is one of the most non classic things about this server.

I'm indifferent to the change, but just wanted clarification as to what was being talked about. Until recently a mob would ignore all hate lists and attack the under 20% health player here, which would be a freshly rezzed person too.

I didn't mean this change wouldn't make sense, I'm simply saying that it should be thought out and discussed, if the exact mechanic cannot be remembered and duplicated then a newly thought out one should replace a /hack.

[Skydash]

My point is, you may be asking them to implement bugs not fixes.
The eq designers had to make significant changes to NPC aggro after Velious had already been out for three months.

Heres what I found:
Velious goes live in December of 2000, then three months later in Feb 2001 : NPC Aggro is significantly retuned (Feb. 21)

Here is a snip from the Patch Notes :
"We've also re-evaluated ways that players have to reduce their own hate. While spells in place to allow this are OK, the Evade skill (possessed by rogues) let them out of their damage too easily. A rogue that successfully evaded would immediately drop to a level of hate lower than someone who was in the awareness range, but hadn't done anything to really upset the creature such as damage it or heal its foe. This problem was exacerbated by the increase of the size of the hate list implemented with Velious."

And the next patch:
"Fixed a bug that would cause NPCs to add too much "temporary hate" when a player would sit down in front of them."

So the sitting down in front of Vindi, was indeed a bug.

[Nirgon]

Originally Posted by Skydash [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have a silly observation here that might be overlooked?
When you are rezzed into a group killing a mob, wouldn't you have Low HP agro?
Isn't that different then Proximity agro?
Sitting agro in the other example... different then proximity?

You would be rezzed next to mob and added by proximity aggro.

It would determine that you are low hp and assign that threat value, if the other players on its threat list were lower than that value... yes it would attack you.

Its kind of a combination of things, but the 2 proofs I listed of pulling Derakor with Malo and getting rezzed in near a freshly pulled hateful mob would solve it.

Undead, yes, behave like root aggro by attacking the closest thing. However, if multiple entities are in melee range of a "stupid" undead (aka not factioned frog), it will make a standard determination of which is/are pets or have the highest hate and go from there. Once there are no mobs in melee range, an unfactioned "stupid" undead will go for the highest threat target or "train" if a player gets in the way. Stupid undead mobs are a special case. If I have a 1/2 hp skeleton and am fleeing from it to the Neriak town front, it will train on a player. If I have a 1/2 hp factioned npc, and flee to the town front, it should only add entities (players and npcs) to its hate list along the way and not immediately train.

I think Nilbog and co are familiar with what I'm explaining here and what I mean.

If not, ask. I'm pretty certain upon reading back what I've gotten here + the 2 cases that are not true here atm we have something solid to implement.

[Furniture]

By the way I don't remember there being certain exceptions for different mobs.

I just recall that back in the day mobs will add you to the hate list once you get in aggro range and come back for you if whoever pulled the mob zoned out or something. As for undead I also recall undead mobs would also add you to the hate list but no matter what they would always go for whoever was closest, similar to root aggro.

[Nirgon]

Too much temporary hate, fine that I agree with.

Adding no hate at all? I do not agree with.

However that post does prove that they have an awareness range that will automatically add players and it is missing here.

(Skip this part and don't want to turn the thread into another pick and choose classic bugs/balance argument.... but I will address it since you brought it up)
Given that we're keeping item recharging (bug) for its era, shouldn't we add extremely high threat to sitting players? I see the high threat as more of a feature than a bug. Pick and choose was never my strong suit when it came to classic mechanics. However, bugs fixed later I'm absolutely willing to be swayed by. I don't think item recharging should be in because it wasn't extremely wide spread/well known during Kunark but here every raiding character (COMPETENT RAIDING CHARACTER) has a WC gate cap. I'd be interested to see if a player here pulls something with malo, you throw a single thrown dagger at it and sit down... what happens. That is about what I would expect the behavior to be when this is fixed.

Likely case we'd see here: Keep the item recharging? Keep the max hate on sit.
Case I'd like to see: Ditch item recharging. Keep max hate on sit.

Just being overt regarding my feelings rather than leaving people to read between the lines [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.].

At any rate... you aren't added to a mob's hate list when they are in your awareness range and aggro to another player... which again, is the problem.

As far as sitting aggro: sitting aggro should be sitting aggro... a static value that is removed when a player stands. It should be the same amount added whether the player is just in the awareness range without having touched the mob or if they are in a group, assist on the mob and sit down.

That said, "safe to take res?" and "inc everyone stand" is a very classic part of EQ to me.

[Nirgon]

Oh... one more thing.

This proximity thing is going to be necessary for things like rampage mechanics in Velious.

So.. yeah :P.

King Tormax without rampage on KOS targets who are standing around and yet to hit him would be sad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.].

Source (yaw its post Velious... doesn't mean rampage didn't exist or was changed..):

[Tue Sep 10 23:57:21 2002] Talthar tells thegerm:2, 'Offtanking Sentinel Sellov, HEALzor me!'
[Tue Sep 10 23:57:28 2002] Talthar goes into a berserker frenzy!
[Tue Sep 10 23:57:36 2002] King Tormax says 'I will bring more glory to the city of Kael Drakkel!'
[Tue Sep 10 23:57:36 2002] Talthar has been slain by King Tormax!
[Tue Sep 10 23:57:36 2002] King Tormax goes on a RAMPAGE!

Notice he is off tanking something else, goes low hp and is slain in a rampage because of low hp aggro.

He is not part of the King Tormaxx tank rotation as proof:

[Tue Sep 10 23:25:03 2002] Shouja tells thegerm:2, 'tank order; Shouja - Harbogast - Bahdd'

Dude is gonna be bringin' a lot less glory without proxxy aggro working if you catch my drift.

[Quineloe]

Some mobs did have proximity agro when already engaged, others ignored proximity agro once they had someone on their hate list. I don't know how you could have forgotten this. You could pull many mobs over people's heads and they wouldn't get attacked, but if you pulled a skeleton past someone who was standing, they'd get agrod and even attacked if your initial pull didn't generate enough threat.

People having to stand on boss pulls? Was pretty much just caution, because it would be such a shitty reason to wipe when wiping meant an hour of recovery and such details weren't exactly well documented back then. So many people didn't even know whether the raid mob they've killed 20 times had proximity agro - it was irrelevant.

[Nirgon]

I'll go with factioned npcs (why else would plane of fear/hate mobs have a faction) will do this for starters. I'd say this with certainty because planar mobs and Vindi both fit this description.

Any other mobs would have to be proven otherwise.

This adds to the feeling that mobs are a little more intelligent and again necessary for rampage mechanics.

[Quineloe]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll go with factioned npcs (why else would plane of fear/hate mobs have a faction) will do this for starters. I'd say this with certainty because planar mobs and Vindi both fit this description.

Any other mobs would have to be proven otherwise.

This adds to the feeling that mobs are a little more intelligent and again necessary for rampage mechanics.

I don't think that was the reason, Crushbone orcs have a faction and they did not proximity agro.