[Necro] Iksar Regeneration Advantage Put to Task

[DrKvothe]

I think it's important to clearly quantify each pro and con for iksar on the wiki. As a newly returning player, I thought of necro as iksar only based on the strong recommendation of the wiki. A 5% improvement in efficiency is pretty big, obviously, but the cons are hated everywhere, requires 20% more kills per level up, and starts in kunark (higher hp mobs).

Here's how the wiki influenced me. I'm leveling a shaman, which I absolutely love, but I need alts to play around on when I'm bored of the shm or when I'm waiting for a spawn (totemic helm, fml). I wanted a class that could comfortably solo. When considering which class to choose, I also needed to account for race as well. I narrowed my choice down to magician or necro, but ultimately chose magician because I didnt like the iksar racial penalties.

But if I hadn't realized that the 'iksar only' message on the wiki was simply for min/maxers, I might have compared gnome mage with erudite necro, and made a necro in the end...

[arsenalpow]

If you want the best person to comment on this look for uteaenyar or sesserdrix. Leveled a DE necro to 60, realized the power of an iksar and is almost 60 on his iksar necro.

[Splorf22]

So, some dude told you to reroll. You were enraged and got out your napkin and did a bit of basic math and concluded that Iksars get about 15% more mana regeneration when solo. At this point, you could have a) rerolled iksar or b) decided that you were content having inferior mana regeneration because you were emotionally attached or preferred how gnomes looked or felt you could make up the difference with skill or whatever.

Instead you created a long thread on the class forums trying to convince yourself and everyone else that it didn't matter that your necro was just as good as an iksar. It reminds me of the Seekers cult. They believed that aliens would rescue them from a cataclysm on December 21, 1954. Needless to say, the aliens did not arrive. You might think that this would result in the destruction of the cult, but in fact they immediately began to proselytize heavily precisely at that point when their position was weakest. One possible explanation is that they needed social proof to override or at least exculpate themselves from the massive empirical evidence that they were idiots.

Based on your reactions in this thread, I suspect you should reroll. I'm way too emotionally attached to my little iksar warrior to reroll him, but as a competitive min-maxer type every now and then I just get irritated at wearing sebilite scale armor for 2+ years. When I rolled him I had no idea that Velious would take this long, and warriors aren't really a skill class that can make up a large gear disadvantage.

[crkhobbit]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So, some dude told you to reroll. You were enraged and got out your napkin and did a bit of basic math and concluded that Iksars get about 15% more mana regeneration when solo. At this point, you could have a) rerolled iksar or b) decided that you were content having inferior mana regeneration because you were emotionally attached or preferred how gnomes looked or felt you could make up the difference with skill or whatever.

False.

Someone told me to reroll. I broke out my napkin to find out if I needed to. My conclusion is that I do not. I shared that conclusion.

And the reason why I shared it is:

Originally Posted by DrKvothe

When considering which class to choose, I also needed to account for race as well. I narrowed my choice down to magician or necro, but ultimately chose magician because I didnt like the iksar racial penalties.

But if I hadn't realized that the 'iksar only' message on the wiki was simply for min/maxers, I might have compared gnome mage with erudite necro, and made a necro in the end...

[Borador]

You are making an Iksar to raid with? That is what people should be telling you not to do...

You should change your hypothetical scenario from an extended fight in a group to solo farming, since that is the only reason a sane person would play a necro. You FD, see invis mobs near, you are low HP/mana, now tell me you are happy to lay there almost three times as long on a gnome vs an iksar.

[crkhobbit]

Originally Posted by Borador [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are making an Iksar to raid with? That is what people should be telling you not to do...

You should change your hypothetical scenario from an extended fight in a group to solo farming, since that is the only reason a sane person would play a necro. You FD, see invis mobs near, you are low HP/mana, now tell me you are happy to lay there almost three times as long on a gnome vs an iksar.

This is a good point.

[planarity]

Proud erudite necro because I don't want to be a stupid lizard person.
No regrets!

If Butchh can do anything that Complexity can't, it's only because he's a very clever dude that knows the mechanics of his class well.

We have roughly the same gear. Both of us can solo all of HS west, neither of us can solo HS south.

[gotrocks]

Iksar necros can fd to bank anywhere they want, get both types of invis and are one of the most powerful solo classes in the game

Being hated everywhere and the racial penalty mean nothing.

but theres also no reason to minmax a necro. de gnome whatever is fine. all the cool kids pick iksar tho.

[Uteunayr]

Hello everyone!

I am the person that has, over the past month, been making significant alterations to the Necromancer page to give a more accurate account of what Necromancers are like on P99 than what was previously available on the wiki. Part of this was updating the race information to include some detail as to the benefit of Iksar regeneration, and a table to display the different stages. A new player has no idea what Lich is and how regen plays with it, and lacking that information, cannot make a truly informed decision. I have also added updated text to the spell tables, and updated the loot tables. I have also put out a Necromancer Soloing and Strategy guide available under the guides section to offer a thorough look at the basic strategies and mechanics of Necromancer.

Everything I say is up to argument. If you see something faulty, *please* point it out. I am not attached to this information, I am only trying to offer the best information so that people can make well informed decisions.

I did this after reaching level 60 on a Dark Elf Necromancer (Uteunayr) and then realizing that I was a gimp to my class, and changed to an Iksar Necromancer (Sesserdrix).

Please note, I am a dirty, dirty fucking min/maxer. I adore being at the peak of my strength whenever possible in a game (probably because of D&D 3.0). I am of the opinion that being a Non-Iksar is not game breaking... It is simply not optimal in the sense of min-maxing. If you have any desire to push your absolute fullest potential, go Iksar. If you want to go flavor, go other races. In the end, it isn't going to screw you over to be a Non-Iksar.

Now then... I wrote this up in a discussion on this with a friend. I am going to try and snip in the pieces that are important, because it is very, very long...

If anything seems out of place, note that I didn't write it for this audience.

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First off to the XP penalty:
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The XP penalty is not that big a deal. You have a 10% penalty and a 20% penalty stacked together to make a 32% penalty. As an Iksar, your HP regen will make you more mana efficient so that way you can kill more things, faster. Why is this? Allow me to explain.

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Lich Efficiency:
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This is perhaps the most important factor of a Necromancer. You want to be as efficient as possible. The more efficient you are, the more things you can kill in a given time period. If you burn all your mana on 1 add, you're inefficient. If you stretch one mana pool to 4, you're more efficient.

One thing underlies all this, and that is the fact that Lifetaps/HP drains are horribly mana inefficient. The Lifetap/HP drain line becomes more efficient as time goes on, beginning with Lifetap (4 mana for 4 hp/damage, 1.0 efficiency), and ends with Touch of Night (400 mana for 720 damage, 1.8 efficiency). The DoT lifetaps, which begin with Leach (72 mana for 72 healing, 1.0 efficiency) to Vexing Mordinia (500 mana for 1000 healing, approximately 2.0 efficiency) are similar, but slightly more efficient.

Compare these efficiencies to Damage Per Mana efficiency of Splurt, has a 6.1875 efficiency, Pyrocuor which has 4.995 efficiency. What we see is that non-Lifetaps are significantly more efficient, meaning you get more bang for your buck.

Now, we also need to talk about Lich Efficiency. I hate to keep using this word, but it is all linked. The more efficient spells you use, the more things you can kill. The more efficient you are with Lich, the less you need to use inefficient spells.

What I mean by this is... Lets assume level 60 for simple math, you can do it yourself if you go to (http://wiki.project1999.com/Necromancer) and look at my color chart. When I refer to Lich Efficiency, the lower the number, the less Hp is lost per point of mana. So lower = better for gaining more mana efficiently.

1) When a Non-Iksar has Demi-Lich up, they have -25 hp per tick and gain +32 mana a tick. This means the Lich Efficiency is .78125. Meaning, you lose .78125 HP per 1 Mana you gain from Lich.

2) When a Non-Iksar has Lich up, they have -15 hp a tick and gain +22 mana a tick. This means the Lich Efficiency is .6818. So .6818 hp is lost per 1 mana gained.

3) When an Iksar has Demi-Lich up, they have -14 hp a tick (less than a Non-Iksar with the lesser version) and gain +32 mana a tick. That brings up a .4375 Lich efficiency. So .4375 HP lost per 1 mana gained.

4) When an Iksar has Lich up, they have -4 hp a tick, and gain +22 mana a tick. This brings a .1818 Lich efficiency. So nearly 1 hp = 5 mana for an Iksar.

For this reason, Iksar is strictly speaking the most Mana Efficient.

What this means is that you will not lose much HP while you gain a lot of mana.

Why does this matter? Because the more HP you lose while gaining mana from Lich, the more often you must use Non-Mana efficient spells to Lifetap back your HP.

So, although you lose 22% more XP, you can kill things significantly faster. Trust me on this. Anyone who has played 2 Necros, one non-Iksar, one Iksar, they all have felt it. It is HUGE. 3-4 mobs on a 6 minute timer was average for Uteu in Highkeep (2 nobles, Isabella, maybe a bard every 20 minutes) while leveling, 6-7 in the same area was average for Sesserdrix (2 nobles, Isabella, both bards, upstairs noble, front gate captain). And it wasn't just skill from having done it before. Not needing to life tap as much is big mana conservation.

For that reason, 22% xp is in no way a gimp. You can generate the same mana with a less gimp on health, that requires less mana inefficient spells.

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Races: Iksar vs Other
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As for the Necro race. Erudite is possibly the worst you can do, and hear me out as to why. I am not counting in their quest specific gear, as that is nice, but... Again, hear me out.

All necro gear is statted to Int. We need to go outside of stuff to things that may not normally be thought of as necro gear to find HP. This means that it is easier to get Int, than it is to get HP.

Next point to have for this argument is the balance between Hp and Mana. HP is in a unique spot for Necromancers because Lich burns it into mana. This is the efficiency thing.

So, think about this... The more mana efficient a necro is, meaning, the more mana they gain per 1 HP, or if you wish, the less HP lost per mana gain, the more free the necro is to stack int. To try to clarify: The less Hp a necro loses to Lich, the more they can afford to not be stacking HP, since they are going to lose less HP. Since an Iksar loses less HP per Mana gained, it means that more Hp on an Iksar is not as necessary as it is on say... An Erudite who has very high int.

Why does HP matter? Why not just lifetap it back? Look above. You lifetap less, means more efficient spells, means no need to stack high HP for the same safety of a padded HP. An Iksar will get to low HP insanely slower than a Non-Iksar, and so they will not be under as much pressure.

This also means that Iksar can itemize heavily towards Int without much issue. An Erudite or Dark Elf will soft cap int at 200 quickly, and have the same stringent itemization in getting rid of it to stack enough Hp to make lifetaps spread out enough over the course of a Lich to remain mana efficient. Int over 200 offers half the mana as int before it, and that is stat that could be used better.

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Why Does It Matter at 60?
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Why does this matter at 60? After all, HP does best when you have steady pulls, with moderate time between pulls (so you don't cap 100% mana from medding).

This matters because Necromancers are not a DPS class. As said by a friend, you don't pick a Necro in your raid for DPS. They can do DPS, but that isn't why you bring them.

How many times have you heard a call "Necros twitch clerics/enchanters!"? You should say often. How many times have patch heals been needed? How many times have you seen a wipe happen, and the group lead ask "Did a cleric camp? No. Did we get a necro out?"

The Necromancer in groups and groups is a Support Class.

Now lets look at Int vs HP in relative uses.

You want Int/Mana to cast a lot of spells in a small period of time. In other words, when you burst, and don't have fast pulls (and time to med to 100% mana), you want to stack int. This way you have a lot of mana stored up to keep casting spells without a break.

You want HP when you have to cast a moderate number of spells over the course of a period of time, but in which you don't have much of a med break. This will make it so you can spend less time casting lifetaps to get back HP, and more time periodically medding and constantly liching. When you cast a steady flow of spells, rather than a burst, Lich is better since you're more efficient.

So why does this matter?

It matters because of a Necromancers job. If the Necromancers job on a fight is DPS, they will primarily be bursting spells and need Int/Mana. In this case, an Iksar can swap over to their Int gear and be super effective because there is a ton of it, without capping their int and getting less advantage out of their stats. A non-Iksar more easily risks softcapping their int and getting less advantage out of it.

However, more often than not, your job as a Necro is to play super support. While supporting, you are twitching over the course of a long period of time, keeping casters topped off, perhaps rooting/STing. This means that the more mana efficient you are, the more you can twitch/support. An Int build may have more saved up, but they wont regenerate it as fast without needing heals. And every heal a Necromancer receives, or lifetap they do is a loss of mana efficiency, and a waste of group mana that could go to healing someone else. So when an Iksar is twitching, he or she will almost never need a heal, and so most of the mana generated can be twitched directly. A non-Iksar will lose more HP, and require a heal, therefore detracting from what they were doing by twitching.

Additionally, the more mana efficient you are, the more easily you can throw in a nuke every now and then while living up to your best role as a Necromancer. Remember, when you're with a group, things generally die too fast for dots... You need to make yourself stand out in another way.

While playing support, you are casting spells over a steady period of time, without bursting them. This makes HP stacking very useful. Less time before the next heal is needed.

Another purpose a Necro may serve is charming. While charming, if your charm pet breaks, you're going to be very happy that you have more HP than more Mana, since you'll have more padding between you and death when your Charm pet with an epic haste on it charges and pushes your shit in.

So at level 60, an Iksar Necromancer will help a group recover faster by offering twitches with less of a cost. One necro is effectively boost to a Cleric's mana recovery by a minimum of 20% just from Lich, not even counting meditate. That's significant.

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A Concluding Simulation
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Imagine that a Necromancer just feign deathed out of a pull. Everyone dies. The Necro gets up, and EEs a cleric. Start the timer. Over the next 10 minutes, the Necro will spend 100% of all mana twitching buffers and clerics to make the recovery go faster. A recovery may take less time, maybe more. I am saying just 10 minutes.

Over the course of these 10 minutes, if you assume 100% med time (which is unrealistic, you're going to lose a tick or two every so often).

1) Demi-Lich, Non-Iksar: -25 hp, +32 mana. Lets assume 1.25k hp. 25 Hp loss a tick over 10 minutes (1 min = 10 ticks, 10 minutes = 100 ticks) means a loss of 25 hp x 100 ticks = 2500 hp lost. If you have 1.25k, you are not above this, and will require at minimum 1 heal. Over the course of these 10 ticks, you'll get 3200 mana. Since you spend 400 mana for +150 mana on a cleric/buffer, you can spend 3200/400 = 8 twitches = 8 x 150 mana = 1200 mana. But you need a Heal to survive, and at the end of 10 minutes, you'll be barely alive. A standard heal will run you 400 mana or so, so your 1200 mana twitched becomes 800. You'll probably need a 2nd heal to not be at around 200 hp at the end of this, bumping to 400.

2) Lich, Non-Iksar: -15 hp, +22 mana. Same hp. 15 hp a tick over 10 minutes means a loss of 15 x 100 ticks = 1500 hp. 1 Heal is more than enough. You generate 22 mana x 100 ticks = 2200 mana, divided by 400 mana (twitch) is 5.5 twitches for 825 mana, minus 400 for 1 heal. So you have 425, but you end with more Hp than Demi-Lich.

Now for an Iksar...

3) Demi-Lich is a -14 HP for +32 mana. Same hp. 14 hp a tick means 1400 lost (1 heal necessary) for 3200 mana gained. This means 8 twitches, the same as the non-Iksar, but you have lost 1100 less HP, so you definitely don't need the 2nd heal. This means you're twitching 1200, minus a 400 for 1 heal. You're never going to need that 2nd heal, because at the end of 10 minutes, you'll be around 1k, not near dead. So 800 mana, no circumstances.

4) Lich is -4 HP for +22 mana. Same hp. Over 10 minutes, you lose 400 health, and gain 2200 mana. This means 5.5 twitches, with absolutely no heals. This means 825 Mana twitched, with 800 hp left over after 10 minutes.

As you can see, an Iksar can deliver more twitch mana over the course of time than a Non-Iksar could, due to the less drain on healers to keep the Necro machine running.

The numbers calculated do NOT count meditate mana. That is constant across races, so a Necro can easily pump more than this. It doesn't change the math. This is how much Lich mana gives you in twitches.

You can also see that, as stated earlier, a lot about whether a necro needs a heal is contingent upon their HP total.

1) If the Non-Iksar Demi-Lich (loss 2500 hp, gain 3200 mana) had more than 1.25k, lets say... 1.75k, than only 1 heal would be fine. The 2nd wouldnt be as necessary, making mana twitched 800, rather than 400 from 2 heals.

2) The Non-Iksar with lich (loss 1500 hp, gain 3200 mana) had 1.75k, then the 1 heal wouldn't be necessary, meaning a full 825 can happen, or a 425 from 1 heal being optional.

3) The Iksar Demi-Lich (loss 1400, gain 3200) had 1.75k, then he or she wouldn't even need 1 heal and end at 350 hp. Sure, might need a heal, but you could start basic regen at this point, and put all 1200 into others, or Maybe get a heal to make it 800. Not necessary.

4) The Iksar with Lich (loss 400, gain 2200) had 1.75k... Not much would change. You only lost 400 hp. Be happy, you're an Iksar. You take less damage and are OP as fuck.

Again, you can see here how the more mana efficient a Necro is (in this case the Iksar), the less value HP has, since you don't need it for the 400 hp loss. This means the Iksar can gear more towards what Necromancers are itemized for, more of the time. This also continues to reinforce the truth that a Necro loses less HP, so they can cast more efficient spells, and kill more things, to get more XP.

Iksar is strictly better. Bar none. If you are a min-maxer... DO NOT MAKE MY MISTAKE!

[applesauce25r624]

^ holy crap! text wall of doom! thank you for the reply, Uteunayr