Perhaps EQNext is going in the right direction..

[MaximiusM]

They are asking us how to make a good game?...

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[Bohab]

Originally Posted by MaximiusM [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They are asking us how to make a good game?...

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rofl totally forgot about that episode. spot on

[Estolcles]

Originally Posted by MaximiusM [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They are asking us how to make a good game?...

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That.

[Uteunayr]

What defines WoW?

For me, it is a few things:
1) Progression: A Themepark Questing Structure: What I mean by this is you go to Area A, and in Area A, there is a central questing hub, with (maybe) a few periphery questing hubs. You go into them, and you gather up quests, and run out and collect 10 bear anuses for a troll with a weird fetish. When you collect enough of these, you finish the quest, and get a burst of experience that is greater than the amount you would get if you had spent that time killing enemies. At the end is a leash spell that guides you to the next questing hub to collect 12 badger noses, and so on. This process continues until max level, at which the game changes entirely.

2) Content: Heavy emphasis on end-game that is inclusive. Once one has collected and turned in enough beaver horns, they are max level. This introduces a few waves of "Content" that is only available once one is max level. This content is locked behind instances that are open to all, and raiding is only competitive in the sense of fighting other guilds for the highest rank of kills in an area in which all kills are available. The content prior to this is effectively meaningless, and is only given value in terms of achievement/appearance gear, rather than actual usable gear. By and large, this gear is not tradable or profitable in any form without "Carrying" a purchaser through the instanced combat.

3) World Design: The world is designed as a themepark, and so the world lacks mystery. By this... Allow me to refer to the world design of EverQuest. When one first steps into Oasis of Marr, and they begin killing Crocodiles and stuff like that, they are not in an isolated bubble. As the player kills crocs and orcs, they can also see Cazel or other giants, and see their power. They also see higher level players taking them down, and can wonder what loot there is. Emphasize this point with the spectre island, ghostly beasts surrounding a tower with a eerie light coming from up top. What is in there? What's on that island? You might see a high level player there fighting them, and that's cool. High level players and low level players are designed to be in similar areas, to allow player interaction, and it gives low level players something to see and aspire too. WoW's world design does not have this in any way. Not even a little. Low levels are instanced onto the main continents while high level players are forced into other continents entirely that are not welcoming to new players.

4) Loot: This goes along with Heavy emphasis on end-game, but the loot system is inclusive of keeping things for some time. Items one receives at level 70 will be useless in the next few levels, if not within the same level. There are no items kept for Utility (Circlet of Shadow/Mage Focus/Mallets) other than those items that are achieved at a maximum level.

I could probably go on if I thought about it, but I am getting low on time.

For EQ Next:

1) Progression: From what has been said (and in no way will that reflect what is truly going to happen), the game is going to not be quest based, but instead have grand arcs with generalized goals for the gaming populace *that choose to take part in it*. These will not be heavily structured or even help progress, merely offer the player some direction in starting an adventure ("Hey, our walls have been under attack by goblins. That shit sucks... Could you kill some?" And you do not have to return proof or anything, you are just nudged that you can go slaughter some goblins). One unlocks classes and spells/abilities through their interaction with the world, discovering them from killing AI that collect in a dynamic system, or through interactions with PCs of varying factions who hold the information to classes.

2) Content: The content is created by a dynamic world that changes slowly over time. The rallying call that lasts months will encourage players to adventure until a certain, unknown criteria is met, and this will trigger progression to a next stage. This continues indefinitely as the world is built and destroyed. The products of these calls will persist on the game world. High-end content is non-existent, since there is no technical "end-game". The end-game is when you feel you have thoroughly explored the game world enough, and have seen everything there is to see. However, what you see is variable, based on...

3) World Design: The game world is created as a basic template. This template will be made of voxels, or miniature blocks similar to Minecraft, but on a significantly smaller scale, to allow smoother edges and better visuals. This world can be shaped actively by players, as well as accidentally. Enemies in this world will not static spawn, but instead gravitate towards areas they like, and away from areas they do not like. If they are allowed to, they will build up to powerful defensive positions that make it harder for adventurers to kill them. The world is massive, and shifting. There is no word on flying mounts (which have the tendency to shrink a game).

4) Loot: Equally as vital to your class/abilitiy makeup as your class/ability makeup. If you're a rogue that wants to teleport, you don't have much innate mana, so you gear toward mana so you can use teleport. If you're a mage that wants to backstab, gear toward agility and strength so you can backstab with your teleport spells. Gear is relative to your build, but vital. No word on the longevity. EDIT: Because of the fact that progression is fairly flat (you don't go from 1->2, you just get more abilities and more versatility), gear does not seem that it is going to be wiped every day or less of playing.

There are many other factors that make EQ Classic great, such as player interdependence (which isn't looking good, since you have all classes available on a character) and and longevity to one's journey to 60 (they have said they are trying to make it take quite a long time to fully progress to where you have "maxed"). They have said that what you saw in EQN was the most basic of stuff together. It is limited, you are watching the EQ effective of a level 60 killing rats in front of Freeport. Graphics (such as the way the trees break to the iron golem) are still in early stages.

It is important to know that this is SoE, the game company that has frequently taken great things and made them crap, and has made great promises, and failed to follow through. I just don't see EQ Next being like WoW in all honesty. Sure, it looks like it graphically, but design wise... I just haven't seen much in comparison. Now EQ2 is pretty damn close on all these points. But on what has currently been said on EQ Next on a world design/game design aspect other than graphics? I just don't see it.

[Dirtnap]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What defines WoW?

For me, it is a few things:
1) Progression: A Themepark Questing Structure: What I mean by this is you go to Area A, and in Area A, there is a central questing hub, with (maybe) a few periphery questing hubs. You go into them, and you gather up quests, and run out and collect 10 bear anuses for a troll with a weird fetish. When you collect enough of these, you finish the quest, and get a burst of experience that is greater than the amount you would get if you had spent that time killing enemies. At the end is a leash spell that guides you to the next questing hub to collect 12 badger noses, and so on. This process continues until max level, at which the game changes entirely.

2) Content: Heavy emphasis on end-game that is inclusive. Once one has collected and turned in enough beaver horns, they are max level. This introduces a few waves of "Content" that is only available once one is max level. This content is locked behind instances that are open to all, and raiding is only competitive in the sense of fighting other guilds for the highest rank of kills in an area in which all kills are available. The content prior to this is effectively meaningless, and is only given value in terms of achievement/appearance gear, rather than actual usable gear. By and large, this gear is not tradable or profitable in any form without "Carrying" a purchaser through the instanced combat.

3) World Design: The world is designed as a themepark, and so the world lacks mystery. By this... Allow me to refer to the world design of EverQuest. When one first steps into Oasis of Marr, and they begin killing Crocodiles and stuff like that, they are not in an isolated bubble. As the player kills crocs and orcs, they can also see Cazel or other giants, and see their power. They also see higher level players taking them down, and can wonder what loot there is. Emphasize this point with the spectre island, ghostly beasts surrounding a tower with a eerie light coming from up top. What is in there? What's on that island? You might see a high level player there fighting them, and that's cool. High level players and low level players are designed to be in similar areas, to allow player interaction, and it gives low level players something to see and aspire too. WoW's world design does not have this in any way. Not even a little. Low levels are instanced onto the main continents while high level players are forced into other continents entirely that are not welcoming to new players.

4) Loot: This goes along with Heavy emphasis on end-game, but the loot system is inclusive of keeping things for some time. Items one receives at level 70 will be useless in the next few levels, if not within the same level. There are no items kept for Utility (Circlet of Shadow/Mage Focus/Mallets) other than those items that are achieved at a maximum level.

I could probably go on if I thought about it, but I am getting low on time.

For EQ Next:

1) Progression: From what has been said (and in no way will that reflect what is truly going to happen), the game is going to not be quest based, but instead have grand arcs with generalized goals for the gaming populace *that choose to take part in it*. These will not be heavily structured or even help progress, merely offer the player some direction in starting an adventure ("Hey, our walls have been under attack by goblins. That shit sucks... Could you kill some?" And you do not have to return proof or anything, you are just nudged that you can go slaughter some goblins). One unlocks classes and spells/abilities through their interaction with the world, discovering them from killing AI that collect in a dynamic system, or through interactions with PCs of varying factions who hold the information to classes.

2) Content: The content is created by a dynamic world that changes slowly over time. The rallying call that lasts months will encourage players to adventure until a certain, unknown criteria is met, and this will trigger progression to a next stage. This continues indefinitely as the world is built and destroyed. The products of these calls will persist on the game world. High-end content is non-existent, since there is no technical "end-game". The end-game is when you feel you have thoroughly explored the game world enough, and have seen everything there is to see. However, what you see is variable, based on...

3) World Design: The game world is created as a basic template. This template will be made of voxels, or miniature blocks similar to Minecraft, but on a significantly smaller scale, to allow smoother edges and better visuals. This world can be shaped actively by players, as well as accidentally. Enemies in this world will not static spawn, but instead gravitate towards areas they like, and away from areas they do not like. If they are allowed to, they will build up to powerful defensive positions that make it harder for adventurers to kill them. The world is massive, and shifting. There is no word on flying mounts (which have the tendency to shrink a game).

4) Loot: Equally as vital to your class/abilitiy makeup as your class/ability makeup. If you're a rogue that wants to teleport, you don't have much innate mana, so you gear toward mana so you can use teleport. If you're a mage that wants to backstab, gear toward agility and strength so you can backstab with your teleport spells. Gear is relative to your build, but vital. No word on the longevity. EDIT: Because of the fact that progression is fairly flat (you don't go from 1->2, you just get more abilities and more versatility), gear does not seem that it is going to be wiped every day or less of playing.

There are many other factors that make EQ Classic great, such as player interdependence (which isn't looking good, since you have all classes available on a character) and and longevity to one's journey to 60 (they have said they are trying to make it take quite a long time to fully progress to where you have "maxed"). They have said that what you saw in EQN was the most basic of stuff together. It is limited, you are watching the EQ effective of a level 60 killing rats in front of Freeport. Graphics (such as the way the trees break to the iron golem) are still in early stages.

It is important to know that this is SoE, the game company that has frequently taken great things and made them crap, and has made great promises, and failed to follow through. I just don't see EQ Next being like WoW in all honesty. Sure, it looks like it graphically, but design wise... I just haven't seen much in comparison. Now EQ2 is pretty damn close on all these points. But on what has currently been said on EQ Next on a world design/game design aspect other than graphics? I just don't see it.

The feel of a game and the aesthetic really matter. You can be bringing different content or styles into the gameplay, but if the gameplay still FEELS the same then it won't matter what you do.

I find that people don't tend to leave a game for lack of content, they leave it because they just can't stand the same thing over and over again. So they decide to buy an MMO they have never played before, and it ends up being the same thing they were already playing. So they just jump back into the game that all their friends are playing.

EQN will need to bring something substantial to the table that other games don't already have, and be mind blowingly well done.

[Kika Maslyaka]

even though WoW created cartoonish world that seem to appeal the most to 12-16 year old , it has its share of dark humor in it, as well as suggestive themes - Succubus as pet anyone?

EQN dropped the level all way down to Disneyland for 5 year old.

Aesthetically, I would prefer lavish landscapes of EQ2 combined with slightly improved EQ1 Luclin models.

Gameplay wise... no MMO exists that could satisfy me completely

[SCB]

If you actually vote in the polls and see the results, you may like what you see. I'm a huge fan of the way the vast majority of polls are going.

[Zuranthium]

Why do people not comprehend 'realistic' as meaning "realistic for a high fantasy World"?

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why do people not comprehend 'realistic' as meaning "realistic for a high fantasy World"?

so in your high fantasy world, if I'm getting this right, creatures can't leap 30ft, but they can rain comets down from the sky... they can't spin extremely fast and become a whirlwind of bladed steel, yet they can be resurrected thousands of times, become invisible, tele-fucking-port across the world, and cast spells that increase their movement speed (ever seen spirit of cheetah or whatever).

Also, the combat here is highly unrealistic as it's slow as balls.

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

so in your high fantasy world, if I'm getting this right, creatures can't leap 30ft, but they can rain comets down from the sky... they can't spin extremely fast and become a whirlwind of bladed steel, yet they can be resurrected thousands of times, become invisible, tele-fucking-port across the world, and cast spells that increase their movement speed (ever seen spirit of cheetah or whatever).

Also, the combat here is highly unrealistic as it's slow as balls.

I know you're just trolling, but seriously, look up the definition of High Fantasy, and then read LoTR and all the Conan stories, and then any other works that essentially borrow from and extend those universes, and then let's continue this silly conversation. Though I'm really hoping that by then you will understand how far away from the point your arguments are.