More Bard Questions - Page 3

t0lkien · #1 07-05-2013, 08:44 AM

Perhaps I'm missing something, but technically you cannot twist 4 songs, let alone 5. One will always drop at the end with 4. Twisting 5 means two will be dropping at the end of the loop - and it can go bad fast with missed notes/resists. Why would you ever try to twist 5?

Or does the timing work out differently somehow on p99 (which wouldn't be Classic in any sense then)?

Also, why any mention of FT? FT on items came in with Luclin didn't it, and this server is never going there. Was the reference ironic? I'm confused!

And also, you guys make playing a Bard sound so crazy complicated. It's never been that complicated for me - though I've never majored on pulling due to our inability to dump aggro and other player's patchy ability to grab it. Monks do it much better than us IMO. Didn't really group much in Seb though!

Dalven · #2 07-05-2013, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but technically you cannot twist 4 songs, let alone 5. One will always drop at the end with 4. Twisting 5 means two will be dropping at the end of the loop - and it can go bad fast with missed notes/resists. Why would you ever try to twist 5?

Or does the timing work out differently somehow on p99 (which wouldn't be Classic in any sense then)?

Also, why any mention of FT? FT on items came in with Luclin didn't it, and this server is never going there. Was the reference ironic? I'm confused!

And also, you guys make playing a Bard sound so crazy complicated. It's never been that complicated for me - though I've never majored on pulling due to our inability to dump aggro and other player's patchy ability to grab it. Monks do it much better than us IMO. Didn't really group much in Seb though!

Twisting four songs is totally possible with the minimum of effect loss. Even looking at the basic timings this is possible - each song takes 3 seconds to cast, generally with a 12 second duration. Once getting your first song of you then twist another 3 within the 9 seconds and then recast the first one in the last 3 second window. You'll have the effect drop for 1 or 2 seconds but IMO this is worth it for a 12 second effect of a fourth song.

What further mitigates this is that some songs, such as regen, have their effect applied on the server tick, which is every 6 seconds. Its difficult to time/know the server tick exactly but more often than not your heal song will drop in between ticks and you will have it back up before it makes the buff check. As long as it is back up before it makes this check its as if the song was never down. If you take into account that a lot of your offensive songs (snare/dots) last for 18 seconds it makes it easy to do a 4 or 5 twist depending on the scenario. The once you can use the Breath of Harmony clicky effect it gets even easier.

Missed notes and resists are just par for the course - you work around it and tank for a few seconds if it happens during cc - you can usually regen yourself up rather than needing a heal. This is why you get to wear plate - you'll be taking hits whether you like it or not as a bard. There isn't much you do as a bard when twisting that the group won't miss for a few seconds while you sort out any resists with the exception of CC, which can sometimes be on a knife edge with 4 or 5 mobs to control.

Agro dumping isn't essential for pulling - what makes bards such skilled pullers is the ability to control the incoming mobs. Between using lull, mez, charm and snare you have much greater control over the number, pace and rate of mobs incoming to the group. I use projectiles or proximity to pull so any agro that you have is usually minimal and any tank can pull it off you easily enough. Sure if you get a critical resist things are going to get hairy pretty quickly but you have a wide variety of tools at your disposal to ensure you aren't dumping 5 mobs on your group all at once.

I'm by no means an expert on monks and have never played on so the following is pretty much just an educated guess on my part. The problem monks have pulling in dungeons is that a caster NPC will usually start to cast as its first action or after taking a couple of steps which can be bad when they FD. As far as I understand it FD doesn't clear agro the way it used to and can take much longer. Beyond FD monks have little ability to split mobs.

t0lkien · #3 07-05-2013, 06:42 PM

My point about a song dropping though - some songs are useless unless they are up all the time. If a mob aoe lands on the tick the resist song was down because I was trying to get a bit more AC/Haste/Regen onto my group, there was no point in having it up at all. It's risky and inelegant to twist songs that are dropping continually IMO. The effect you point out about server ticks just makes it all the more inexact. We never really know when this is until it ticks - despite the tools that help us guess. Mix in lag with this - both yours and others' - (I'm on a constant 250ms which is not bad compared to the 500ms+ I had on live) and it's a total crap shoot.

My experience has been it's better in the long run to have 3 songs up permanently and surely, than to be guessing with four. My UI says the song icon is up, but the server says otherwise when that AOE lands = trouble. Actually, I've wiped to those exact situations more than once enough times to resolve to keep a solid three songs up (not including BoH clicky). Not criticizing others to go for the four or five, but it's risky, and that needs to be understood by other classes who get the idea 4 songs is the minimum a "good" bard should be singing. I had this conversation constantly on live:

"So and so had four songs up all the time".
"No, he didn't actually, one was dropping at the end of the loop continually. You just didn't notice or it didn't show on your UI. On the server it was dropping. It's simple math - 12/(3+time between keypresses) < 4, and that doesn't account for resists or missed notes and lag. With those you can be stretching to keep even three up without something dropping when RNG goes bad."
"Good bards can do four."
"*sigh*".

Re. aggro dumping, with high damaging mobs I've found it counter-productive to be the puller if I have a tank who can't grab aggro. Body pulling can be terribly inexact (I've run over mobs and stood on top of them and still not gained aggro on p99, while the mob 5m away immediately aggros - something is definitely different to live), so it's usually necessary to land a Bellows or something. I've also been hammered into paste multiple times because my group couldn't regain aggro no matter what they did after I've done that. In the end it was more efficient for the tank to pull. The caveat is that this usually hasn't happened with SKs and Paladins.

Not to dispute your comments on pulling, because as I said, I've never majored on it and only once or twice done it in raids, and always outdoors. I would however say that FD is *the* premium tool for splitting mobs. The proof of that was that in Velious, every single raid I went on had a monk puller. Past Luclin I never once saw a Bard pull for a raid either (though my raiding diminished a lot before I quit). Actually the proof for that was Thott's constant whining [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

astuce999 · #4 07-05-2013, 07:57 PM

On a raid with lag it's better to sing 3 if on resist duty (2 rythms with drums + another).

On a raid when not on resist duty, you can still manage 4 songs no problem.

Only when in groups or soloing should the 5 song twist become relevant, I've posted about it on p99 multiple times. It has to do with what Dalven was talking about.

About your math, songs aren't 12 second duration. Songs are 12.1 to 17.9 second duration, depending on the server tick. This important difference gives plenty of room for a stable 4 song twist.

Astuce

Dalven · #5 07-06-2013, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astuce999 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

On a raid with lag it's better to sing 3 if on resist duty (2 rythms with drums + another).

On a raid when not on resist duty, you can still manage 4 songs no problem.

Only when in groups or soloing should the 5 song twist become relevant, I've posted about it on p99 multiple times. It has to do with what Dalven was talking about.

About your math, songs aren't 12 second duration. Songs are 12.1 to 17.9 second duration, depending on the server tick. This important difference gives plenty of room for a stable 4 song twist.

Astuce

As you say there's no point messing about with 4 songs on raids - as t0lkien points out a 3 song twist is the only way to guarantee no drops. I've never really had a good grip of the math of it but from personal experience I've always found four or five songs works for me in groups.

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My point about a song dropping though - some songs are useless unless they are up all the time. If a mob aoe lands on the tick the resist song was down because I was trying to get a bit more AC/Haste/Regen onto my group, there was no point in having it up at all. It's risky and inelegant to twist songs that are dropping continually IMO. The effect you point out about server ticks just makes it all the more inexact. We never really know when this is until it ticks - despite the tools that help us guess. Mix in lag with this - both yours and others' - (I'm on a constant 250ms which is not bad compared to the 500ms+ I had on live) and it's a total crap shoot.

Like I say I've never really been into the math but Astuce makes a good post here and there's some further discussion in that thread on different ways bards on the server twist 4 songs. For me the momentary drop in effect is worth getting a whole extra song in. Its a fair point someone might get nuked if it hits in the time the effect is down but these things can happen and in my experience chances of it are fairly low. Hopefully you or someone else will be doing interrupts anyway.

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Re. aggro dumping, with high damaging mobs I've found it counter-productive to be the puller if I have a tank who can't grab aggro. Body pulling can be terribly inexact (I've run over mobs and stood on top of them and still not gained aggro on p99, while the mob 5m away immediately aggros - something is definitely different to live), so it's usually necessary to land a Bellows or something. I've also been hammered into paste multiple times because my group couldn't regain aggro no matter what they did after I've done that. In the end it was more efficient for the tank to pull. The caveat is that this usually hasn't happened with SKs and Paladins.

Not to dispute your comments on pulling, because as I said, I've never majored on it and only once or twice done it in raids, and always outdoors. I would however say that FD is *the* premium tool for splitting mobs. The proof of that was that in Velious, every single raid I went on had a monk puller. Past Luclin I never once saw a Bard pull for a raid either (though my raiding diminished a lot before I quit). Actually the proof for that was Thott's constant whining

I should emphasise that when I'm talking about playing a bard I'm talking about it from a grouping perspective. I don't have much experience Velious or onwards but bard pulling effectiveness post Velious isn't relevant here, although they got Fading Memories to level the playing field in PoP didn't they?

I've played with and seen some great monks in action pulling on raids and in dungeons but I'll maintain for places with a ton of casters and tight clusters the monk will want the bard out there pulling. Ultimately I think bards have a better range of pulling tools and can be more flexible in a group situation when it comes to pulls. Dumping agro is only one method of pulling effectively - bards can split mobs just as effectively in a group scenario.

I've found that pulling with projectiles generates a minimum amount of agro and have never had issues with tanks pulling it off me. Using charm to bring in mobs is another option - once you break the charm the mobs agro list is reset and a tank can pick up the mob with ease. There are numerous ways to overcome this problem and in most cases it won't be one as long as you're not pulling with snare.

Thott as a high level bard and in charge of an uber EQ guild was probably more concerned with bard pulling at a raid level, where the focus was definitely put on FD pulling, because he was likely sick of having to sing resist songs at all the raids.

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I'm sorry, but years of playing on live show this not to be true for me. I can never keep four songs up reliably and have never seen another Bard do it either. This is easy to show if you stand somewhere and just twist four songs that have icons. One will inevitably start dropping (they'll rotate naturally). If it's different on p99... well it's different. On live that's how it was. I'll test this on p99 now for confirmation. Hang tight.Yep confirmed as the same on p99 for me. A four song twist has icons dropping. You guys are either theory crafting and not observing it ingame, or my ping is making the difference (though I can't see how that's true as it's consistent), or there is some other factor at work that I'm not aware of. I don't know what to else to say...

Here's a challenge though - keep up a four song twist reliably over a minute or two and post the fraps video.

No one is saying that you can sing four songs without the icons and effects dropping. I'm arguing that the effects dropping for a marginal period of time doesn't matter. As I've said the chances of a momentarily lost effect causing a wipe are pretty slim - this obviously isn't the case for mez/snare but this is easily mitigated by paying attention.

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Seriously, I don't believe you guys. Thott didn't either by the way (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/powercurves.php):

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The reason that bards can do decent damage around level 50 even with the flat curve is that the songs themselves limit a bard prior to level 46. Before 46 a bard doesn't have 3 decent damage songs to sing, so damage is limited to just 2/3 of what it could be based on the curve. So the curve increases in max possible damage output with a more normal shape due to when the songs become available. Yet a bard is surely singing three songs, a decent bard is at least, prior to 46, so switching from 2 to 3 damage songs isn't an increase in damage, it's trading something else the bard was singing for damage. It increases the speed, not the efficiency, of damage the bard can do. And thus the graphed curve is accurate, and it's flat.

I.E. Three songs is the standard full twist. And as I said, that is proveable just by standing there and twisting 4 icon songs. Show me the video of a solid four song twist over a few minutes, or honestly, it's all theorycrafting.

That quote is taken out of context of that article to be fair. In it he's talking about the power of bards relative to increasing level was crap compared to other classes and complaining about it. He mentions the 3 song twist as being standard while giving an example relating to this, which is probably just arbitrary. I don't see any discussion about the relative benefits of twisting 3 songs vs 4 songs.

People were having this same discussion back in 2001.

This guy thought the idea of twisting 4 songs was dumb but acknowledged that people did it. This other guy kinda liked the idea and goes into it in a bit of depth.

t0lkien · #6 07-06-2013, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalven [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No one is saying that you can sing four songs without the icons and effects dropping. I'm arguing that the effects dropping for a marginal period of time doesn't matter.

Yep, and that's my only point. For sure, twisting four or more is a play choice. I'm not standing on my soap box and casting forth some sort of Bard morality about it, I'm just underscoring that a permanent 3 song twist is the best we can ever do without songs dropping. Thank-you for getting it Dalven!

It's important that this is the reality, and that it's recognised so we do don't get posts confusing people with misinformation, untried theory crafting, and erroneous anecdote that....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cords [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think the 3 song vs 4 song twist is kind of funny. If your doing your rotations right 4 songs is no issue. Song one will be flashing when you get back around to it, and your already casting it again, by the time it drops off you have your song back up, and your continue down the line, never really loosing any of your four songs. Now granted it is much easier in a group because your already running at least 3 songs before a pull, in a fight you throw auto attack on, and start running your song rotation. I hot bar my 4 fight songs and it makes it smother, because your not clicking all the time. Raids is standard practice 3 songs. but I think this has been said more then once in this discussion

What? No wait we just spent two pages dis...

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirAlvarex [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mathematically 5 songs is doable (4 songs + BoH). I haven't played much lately, but when I grouped I'd throw up Regen/Clarity/Haste/Snare+BoH routinely. Snare would never drop because it's a detriment, and regen / haste would only sometimes drop if I got lazy or distracted.

If you are doing non-benificial songs, you can do 5 songs straight up. I do fear+snare+3dots all the time. If you're real good, you can do 6 songs at once, which would be 3 AE's dots + 3 single target dots for some nice DPS (with instrument swapping). Same goes for Mez. It's easy to keep 5 non-resist happy mobs locked down indefinitely.

But if I need to keep 3 songs up all the time, for like resistance fights, I only twist those 3 songs (with BoH since no epic) to ensure there are no dropoffs of coverage.

*sigh*

SirAlvarex · #7 07-06-2013, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What? No wait we just spent two pages dis...
*sigh*

Well, you spent two pages saying it wasn't possible, then trying it yourself with your own methods and finding it not possible. You aren't considering all of our though songs in the equation.

Mathematics:
Each song has a cast time of ~3 seconds
Each Beneficial Duration song lasts between 12 and 18 seconds, depending on where the song was cast in regards to the server tick.

12/3 = 4, so mathematically he maximum number of songs you can play at any one point is 4, since that's the hard minimum. If you can automate the process so there's no lag, then you have 4 beneficial durationsongs that are only broken up by missed-note garbage.

However the example I gave presented two different songs types: Non-buffs (clarity song) and detrimentals. Clarity buff doesn't have a timer, it's just flat mana. The Snare is a detriment, and those have a duration lasting between 18 and 24 seconds. So, by switching out two duration beneficial songs, we now only have the probility of a song dropping every 4 cycles, and those would be the Haste or the Regen.

Both of those songs wouldn't be seen as huge detriment to the group if they drop for a few seconds, so it isn't a horrible situation. If you are twisting resists? Then yeah, you probably want to keep it safe.

If you switch out more of those songs for the detriments, then you run into why bard fear kiting works. Since the minimum duration on the detrimental songsis 18s, that means you can at max have 18/3 == 6 detrimental songsrunning at a time. Since there isn't a grace period with the detrimental songs, it's advisable to only run 5 at a time to take into account server ticks.

So yes, it is possible to twist 4 songs at once, hell even 5. If you are wanting to just twist beneficial duration songs, then you won't have much luck. Even when I had it going with two macros using stopsong, I'd still get a drop of a quarter of a second every other cast due to innate UI lag.

You can test it yourself with the following macros:
Macro1:
/stopsong
/pause 28, /cast 1
/stopsong
/pause 28, /cast 2

Macro2:
/stopsong
/pause 28, /cast 3
/stopsong
/pause 28, /cast 4

Spamming those two macros still leaves you with about a second of wasted time for letting the client cast the next song. If stopsong were instantanious then the above macros would allow for seamless twisting of 4 beneficial duration songs.

But the question was how many songs you can twist at once, and if you are including our entire bevy of songs then yes, the most you can twist is 5 + BoH (or any clickable bard song).

As with all things Bard, this isn't a cut and dry example of "give me a hardline guide on how to do something!" The amount of songs you can twist at any given point is entirely determined by the situation that you are presented with, and augmented by the skill of the player involved.

So I guess what you are wanting is a breakdown like this?
How many songs can I keep up if I am responsible for resists?
3. One of either our two "3 resist type" drum resists or of our 5 "single resist" singing songs, Guardian Rhythms, and any other beneficial song (typically Cantata).

How many mobs can I keep mezzed at once?
5. Any more than that and you'll run into big mistakes with resists. Subtract one/two if you want to Charm safely.

How many songs can I play if I am soloing and don't need the buffs?
5. Fear + Snare + 3 Drum Dots work great. Still a go-to even with Epic.

If I'm in a group, how many can I keep up if I'm not CC and this isn't a resist fight?
4, depending on your situation. If the only beneficial song you need to keep up is Regen (or additionally haste), then you can run a Snare+Regen+Clarity+Haste setup where the only drop is in Regen/Haste, and that only impedes on the group a tiny bit considering the benefits from snare/clarity being added to the mix. You can switch out snare with Mez, Charm, or any other detrimental song as needed. Or in an all-caster group drop Haste for double dose of Clarity. Or a triple dose by dropping Snare.

So I guess you want to hear that yes, you are in fact correct that it is unrealistic to keep 4 beneficial duration songs up and going for an entire fight that lasts longer than 24 seconds (the amount of time needed for the songs to drop on the second pass). But not all of our songs are constrained to the same timers, so the answer isn't cut and dry. Some setups can be very successful with twisting 5 songs.

t0lkien · #8 07-06-2013, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalven [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Like I say I've never really been into the math but Astuce makes a good post here and there's some further discussion in that thread on different ways bards on the server twist 4 songs.

I'm calling theorycrafting on this stuff. I don't see it in experience. It's telling there was no discussion about this on live back in the day - and those guys then were *serious* min/maxers. Bards were parsed to within an inch of existence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalven [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That quote is taken out of context of that article to be fair. In it he's talking about the power of bards relative to increasing level was crap compared to other classes and complaining about it. He mentions the 3 song twist as being standard while giving an example relating to this, which is probably just arbitrary. I don't see any discussion about the relative benefits of twisting 3 songs vs 4 songs.

Haha I knew someone was going to say this. You miss the point - it's proof that 3 songs was understood as the minimum twist. The context is not relevant, only the thinking behind what is being said.

As I said though, I know you get it, and the choice to twist more than 3 is situational. The important point is that songs will drop, and that should be understood. The thing I'm trying to mitigate here is the silliness that goes on when people start expecting Bards to twist 4 songs, and "five if you're really good HYUK!"

SirAlvarex · #9 07-06-2013, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As I said though, I know you get it, and the choice to twist more than 3 is situational. The important point is that songs will drop, and that should be understood.

Damnit, I wish I would have saw that you understood the situational part before writing up that piece of a reply. Ohwell.

t0lkien · #10 07-05-2013, 08:33 PM

I'm sorry, but years of playing on live show this not to be true for me. I can never keep four songs up reliably and have never seen another Bard do it either. This is easy to show if you stand somewhere and just twist four songs that have icons. One will inevitably start dropping (they'll rotate naturally). If it's different on p99... well it's different. On live that's how it was. I'll test this on p99 now for confirmation. Hang tight.

Yep confirmed as the same on p99 for me. A four song twist has icons dropping. You guys are either theory crafting and not observing it ingame, or my ping is making the difference (though I can't see how that's true as it's consistent), or there is some other factor at work that I'm not aware of. I don't know what to else to say...

Here's a challenge though - keep up a four song twist reliably over a minute or two and post the fraps video.