Raiding in P1999 is nothing like raiding in classic.

[W8Gamer]

Originally Posted by Tiddlywinks [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I understand your point, but I think we're really talking about 2 seperate things.

However, in regards to the fact that you feel they don't have an advantage over an up and coming guild I'm really confused. TMO got it's foot in VP early, only IB had the same advantage that they were given, and IB quit playing on the server, so guilds such as FE have almost no way of accessing the zone given the current rules.

It's much harder to pull of a successful assault than it is to mount a defense, and all TMO needs to do, given the rules of the server, is hold on and defend VP to maintain their advantage.

Personally I think the rules at the time had a direct affect on giving TMO this advantage, because they were literally GIVEN a rotation for their first cracks at VP. Nobody in FE or any other guild wanting to attempt to challenge TMO for mobs in the zone can say they were offered the same. The fact FE ever killed anything in there is insanely impressive.

Of course TMO has to play by the same rules as everyone else, I don't think that's the issue being discussed. The issue is that given the current non-classic rules, actual competition has been all but stifled, and almost nobody else wanting to raid or see the zone is having any fun.

Now we can argue all day about whether THAT is classic or not (it was imo) but the point is here it's only due to non-classic rules, whereas on live it actually came down to player/guild skill and knowledge. Barriers that simply don't exist for the majority of players on this server.

I never said TMO doesn't have an advantage. Of course they have an advantage. I'm saying they don't have an unfair advantage. Just because things worked out in their favor doesn't mean it's "unfair". That's like if a guy who's been sitting at a poker table for 4 hours manages to rack up $10,000 in chips and then I come sit at the table with my measly $500. Does the other guy have an advantage? Damn right he does. Is his advantage unfair? Nope. He got here first. He's been running the table longer than I have. Therefore I have an uphill battle. It'll be hard to overcome, but it's not impossible. Now substitute the table for p99 raid scene and substitute chips for raid loot. TMO been running the table longer than anyone else. So, whoever sits at the table is going to be at a disadvantage, but that doesn't make it unfair and that doesn't mean TMO is unbeatable.

FE has already beaten TMO in VP before. As miraculous as that may seem, it doesn't take away from the fact that it happened. That is all the proof you need that TMO can be beat in VP under the current rule set. Same goes with any other target. TMO loses targets all the time. Granted for every 1 they lose, they probably win 3, but that doesn't take away from the fact that TMO can and has been beaten. It's just about how strong is your will and determination to beat them.

Now, I already know you're going to bring up the whole shady business that happened with Amelinda. IF that's how it went down, then yes, TMO got an unfair advantage in the raid scene. However, I was not on the server when it happened so I can't comment on it. At the same, Autotune says that it DIDN'T go down like that. So, we are stuck at a he said she said dilemma. Unless you can prove that the cheating went down the way you said, it's pretty much a moot point, because regardless of what went down then, has nothing to do with people claiming the current rules need to be changed now. I mean, lets says that whole scenario never happened. What then? Who fucking knows?! There is no way to speculate what would have happened. TMO might have still beat out IB. IB might have beat out TMO. The only difference is everyone would be bitching about IB hogging all the loots, but still demanding the raid scene be fixed when it isn't even broken.

[Tiddlywinks]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Let's be honest this thread boils down to "we're not getting mobs" so its "nothing like classic"

I couldn't disagree more unless you guys were in top raiding guilds on your servers during classic-Velious.

Now.. if you were in the PoP era (most people here I think are)... I can see why not getting Kunark/Velious mobs for you doesn't feel "classic".

Umm.. live did not have mob variances, sanctioned VP training, broken Ivaynders Hoops, and broken resist systems just to name a few.

I think there is quite a lot of things on this server that are "nothing like classic", some implemented intentionally.

[Tiddlywinks]

Originally Posted by W8Gamer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I never said TMO doesn't have an advantage. Of course they have an advantage. I'm saying they don't have an unfair advantage. Just because things worked out in their favor doesn't mean it's "unfair". That's like if a guy who's been sitting at a poker table for 4 hours manages to rack up $10,000 in chips and then I come sit at the table with my measly $500. Does the other guy have an advantage? Damn right he does. Is his advantage unfair? Nope. He got here first. He's been running the table longer than I have. Therefore I have an uphill battle. It'll be hard to overcome, but it's not impossible. Now substitute the table for p99 raid scene and substitute chips for raid loot. TMO been running the table longer than anyone else. So, whoever sits at the table is going to be at a disadvantage, but that doesn't make it unfair and that doesn't mean TMO is unbeatable.

FE has already beaten TMO in VP before. As miraculous as that may seem, it doesn't take away from the fact that it happened. That is all the proof you need that TMO can be beat in VP under the current rule set. Same goes with any other target. TMO loses targets all the time. Granted for every 1 they lose, they probably win 3, but that doesn't take away from the fact that TMO can and has been beaten. It's just about how strong is your will and determination to beat them.

Now, I already know you're going to bring up the whole shady business that happened with Amelinda. IF that's how it went down, then yes, TMO got an unfair advantage in the raid scene. However, I was not on the server when it happened so I can't comment on it. At the same, Autotune says that it DIDN'T go down like that. So, we are stuck at a he said she said dilemma. Unless you can prove that the cheating went down the way you said, it's pretty much a moot point, because regardless of what went down then, has nothing to do with people claiming the current rules need to be changed now. I mean, lets says that whole scenario never happened. What then? Who fucking knows?! There is no way to speculate what would have happened. TMO might have still beat out IB. IB might have beat out TMO. The only difference is everyone would be bitching about IB hogging all the loots, but still demanding the raid scene be fixed when it isn't even broken.

Your poker analogy doesn't work. The rules then, were not the same as the rules now. Rules are fluid and change over time. For a better analogy, the guy who's been at the table the longest had been given a +2500 chip bonus when he sat down at the table. By the time you sat down that chip bonus no longer applied, so you have to build yours from scratch, the hard way. That's not "fair" to you.

To your second point, I agree it might be IB who won out and they might be the ones training people out of VP. At some point in the future it may very well FE who are the ones doing it. It's not wrong simply because it's TMO who's doing it and they have an advantage because they've been doing it for so long, it's wrong because TRAINING A ZONE, NERFING IVAYNDERS HOOPS, HAVING 4 DAY VARIANCES ARE NOT CLASSIC EVERQUEST.

If it's not a real attempt to create a classic EverQuest server than fine. Let's just admit it up-front at least and not try to hide behind all of the bullshit rules and changes we've created in an attempt to "create a classic atmosphere". It's a farce.

[Tiddlywinks]

For the record, I don't think anyone is saying beating TMO in VP or elsewhere or doing whatever is impossible, I think they're saying it's bullshit the way it's intentionally different from the way it was in classic.

That's my point at least.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think it's comical because I know exactly what is being said. The analogy compares the dedication of a P99 raider to the dedication of an olympian. To say that the dedication to drop everything your doing at any given moment in the day to play a video game is the same as the dedication it takes to be the best in a real sport of any sort is just plain stupid.

You just don't get it dude.

Comparing two things =/= saying two things are the exact same. Analogizing two things =/= saying two things are the exact same. Comparing/analogizing is calling attention to the similarities between things that may otherwise be very different.

Originally Posted by W8Gamer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Would you call the Olympian that works out for an hour more than the rest of the competition every day greedy or immoral? He went the extra mile.

. . .

One could argue that's what TMO or any top guild is doing. They are going that extra mile to achieve their goal.

He isn't saying that the work TMO does to kill stuff is as difficult/challenging/taxing/meaningful as the work an olympian does to win a medal. He is saying that just like an Olympian who works harder than his competition wins the gold, so too is TMO working harder than its competition and therefore getting to kill the mobs.

[Ravager]

By the way, I think your analogy to the analogy is spot on and a good example of why it's a poor analogy. You'd never describe the sun as a candle in anything other than an abstract concept, like poetry, or in an argument such as this to make a lousy point. My point is it's a comical analogy, because even the similar things being compared are so disparate.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For those of you who aren't able to devote the "on call" and "anything goes" play time to the raiding scene here... (and imagine that! and single, successful PvE server attracting so many greats of old having a godmode competitive raid scene..) I suggest you discover other things that made EQ great. Imagine if there were only 2 or 3 live servers... and all the skilled players were lumped onto them.

For instance? The solo artist challenge. Leveling and succeeding playing an odd race/class combo. Creating a group that regularly clears some odd dungeon and suddenly turning it into a favorite place to group for the community. Being a server personality known for some running gag etc.

I think people who compete in the solo artist challenge and compare notes, contribute to making the server more classic in the bugs section or play in an all Iksar guild are the real winners here. Stop making a leisure activity a job or setting ridiculous expectations and getting frustrated when you can't meet them.

I'd also stop challenging TMO and talking about destroying them. That is absolutely nuts. Try making friends with them, joining xp groups with their ridiculously strong alts (Jeremy runs some AoE chardok on Thursday iirc) and maybe getting into talks about them letting you have a different raid mob every other week.

For instance, despite what anyone in TMO probably says or thinks scattered across members, they are going to be primarily a Giant faction guild... like it or not to start and for quite some time. I'd suggest your guilds trying to be the best dragon faction guild and playing at sane and leisurely hours in Velious. If it's about loot... check out the halls of testing quests or compare dragon faction armor per slot vs kael per slot. Hell, you can be the plane of mischief farm guild too. PoM armor was droppable for several months from Velious release too :P.

If your collective intentions are "we're going to wake the sleeper / start taking every Phara Dar" and destroy TMO/the server... you need to get your head examined. You (collectively) in 99.9% of cases on live did not have 3-4 phara dar loots, you don't *deserve* them and the game *is* fun without them... if you don't play it like a meth addicted pixel head.

Hard concepts!

Nirgon wins!

[Raavak]

All this monopoly crap on a day that Forceful Entry got Trakanon over TMO. Seems really irrelevant.

[Ravager]

The problem isn't that the rest of the server wants everything, it's that TMO does.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem isn't that the rest of the server wants everything, it's that TMO does.

Why is that a problem?