Players will always compete for raid mobs; the point of contention is the rules

[Ele]

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Any guild on a server such as this one would have ended up being hated for the same reasons, had they been successful at consistently killing dragons.

If it ended at consistently killing dragons, then it would be what it is. However, going above and beyond that with unsportsmanlike tactics of training, leapfrogging, kiting, and griefing are among the points of contention here.

[Nietche]

Originally Posted by Ele [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If it ended at consistently killing dragons, then it would be what it is. However, going above and beyond that with unsportsmanlike tactics of training, leapfrogging, kiting, and griefing are among the points of contention here.

Ok, on topic:

The only reason why training is unsportsmanlike in VP is because we can't PvP. To me, it's more unsportsmanlike to use the environment to kill someone when PvP is enabled than when the converse is true (such as it is on p99 blue).

[Gnomersy]

The only flaw to your cornering the market analogy is in every market there rules both written and unwritten that will get you blackballed/jail time if broken. The difference between real world markets and this "market" is you can lobby(buy politicians) to change the rules to be more fair or less however you see fit. Here only QQing and requests to Rogean (god in this case) can change the rules, or so I assume. I'm just a naive gnome though so maybe there are other channels to bring about change.

Hooray for logic and sound arguments /applaud for you nietche!

[Ele]

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok, on topic:

The only reason why training is unsportsmanlike in VP is because we can't PvP. To me, it's more unsportsmanlike to use the environment to kill someone when PvP is enabled than when the converse is true (such as it is on p99 blue).

Are you serious? At least when PvP is enabled people expect to be killed by other people in some form. People don't roll blue to get griefed or killed by other people unless they consent to a duel.

[Khaleesi]

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok, on topic:

The only reason why training is unsportsmanlike in VP is because we can't PvP. To me, it's more unsportsmanlike to use the environment to kill someone when PvP is enabled than when the converse is true (such as it is on p99 blue).

The reason it's unsportsmanlike, is because it's ... -wait for it ...are you sitting down.. prepare your self - ... it's UNSPORTSMANLIKE, period.

If this point is in contention, clearly people need to goto Red and see what happens when you try to train during raids. Surely if they want it bad enough (apparently the formula for success), then they could have it within weeks.
So why aren't more people on Red, oh wait... I forgot, PVP.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TL;DR: If you don't understand how the machination of competition works to perpetuate success and failure and their epiphenomenal feelings of hatred, fear, respect, and so on, please join your local (pick a sport) league. It's just the way it is, unless you're a "principle of utility" fanatic, which almost no one is on this server.

Yes, clearly playing basketball involves watching the court for 96 hours before your opponent finally shows up at 4AM, at which point you text all your friends to grab their high-tops and jerseys and head to the gym.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Any guild on a server such as this one would have ended up being hated for the same reasons, had they been successful at consistently killing dragons.

Also, you may find this difficult to believe, but I don't hate TMO. What I despise is the form of competition that occurs under rules with variance.

[Nietche]

Originally Posted by Gnomersy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only flaw to your cornering the market analogy is in every market there rules both written and unwritten that will get you blackballed/jail time if broken. The difference between real world markets and this "market" is you can lobby(buy politicians) to change the rules to be more fair or less however you see fit. Here only QQing and requests to Rogean (god in this case) can change the rules, or so I assume. I'm just a naive gnome though so maybe there are other channels to bring about change.

Hooray for logic and sound arguments /applaud for you nietche!

How is my market analogy flawed when you stated that "all markets" have inherent rules which, if broken, result in some repercussion? Is that not the case in p99 blue as well?

Did I need to explicitly state the disclaimer: Oh, by the way, like all other markets in the real world, the p99 market also has rules which, if broken, will result in some sort of repercussion?

Really?

P.S. You can lobby here too.

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also, you may find this difficult to believe, but I don't hate TMO. What I despise is the form of competition that occurs under rules with variance.

And this is where we diverge in our view. I fault both the system and the people. I don't think people are automatons that will just attempt to game the system no matter what system is in place. You can have a totally fucked up system, but the people could still make a good place to be. A gentleman's agreement or even rotation could have been established long ago, but instead the politics of envy and greed won out. That being said, the system in place does have an effect on the type of people who are willing to be a part of it, as well as the behavior of the people within the system. So changing the system will influence the types of behaviors we're likely to see from the community, and I hope they improve this aspect of the server before Velious is released. It would be a shame to see the same faggotry spread to ToV and Kael.

[Nietche]

Originally Posted by Ele [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are you serious? At least when PvP is enabled people expect to be killed by other people in some form. People don't roll blue to get griefed or killed by other people unless they consent to a duel.

I don't think you read what I stated well.

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To me, it's more unsportsmanlike to use the environment to kill someone when PvP is enabled than when the converse is true (such as it is on p99 blue).

Environment = the "E" in PvE
PvP = Player versus Player

So when I say "use the environment," I'm talking about bugs, exploits, and--the topic of this thread--training.

My argument is that when PvP is enabled--meaning that people can attack other people without resorting to "PvE tactics" (like training), it is more unsportsmantlike to resort to said training than when PvP is not possible (like p99 blue). In other words, PvP'ers who resort to training to kill other people rather than "hand to hand combat" are going to get the "unsportsmanlike conduct flag" every time. No one (not even the culprit) is going to argue the flag, even when training is technically legal such as in VP. Period.

In PvE, it's a different story, and I will submit the argument (again) that the reason why the area is grayer on a blue server is because there are no alternatives to training in killing someone for a particular reason. So in a zone like VP from where Rogean and staff pretty much stay away (in the case of training), it's not likely that 100% of the population is going to come away from the act of "training" thinking that it was unsportsmanlike.

This is not to say that I think "training" is ok in either scenario, but there is a definite continuum to weigh in on; and I don't sit on either of the absolutes.

I will submit that the part of the quote (below), given my above points, consists of a fallacy, which in particular deals with the modus tollens part of the argument (and I should have added the bracketed verb as well). I should have stated that, on p99 red, the question of training in VP being unsportsmanlike is pretty close to 100% "yes." On blue, it's questionable (in VP).

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only reason why training is [considered] unsportsmanlike in VP is because we can't PvP.