Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I will say this: emergencies when they do arise are the responsibility of everyone in the group. 3 players in this theoretical group already have massive (the best) capabilities to deal with these circumstances: enchanter x2 and cleric for reasons that should be OBVIOUS.

Can a mage help out? Yep. It’s called using your pet to tank and lock down crap and/or unloading your mana bar. In a full, reckless/feckless burn a mage can crank out around 200dps (+/-) a bit depending on resists to get shit dead. If the shit is dead, no emergency. Or how about dash out of range and CoTH the cleric to wipe aggro and then take one for the team (suicide) so the group can hard reboot. Or heck even quick camp the inevitable wipe and CoTH the cleric back to a safe spot to rez in?

None of this should ever happen (ever) in a group of competent players.

Again, it is a silly argument to say groups never have problems, even with competent players. Even the best players make mistakes, have lag, etc.

You literally have to make the "players play perfectly" argument to even attempt to show a Shaman isn't necessary. Under this argument, Mage loses because 4x Enchanters would offer more DPS if you assume DPS > everything when playing perfectly. Again, this is a silly argument, and I have no idea why it is being made.

The most common group I had at Fungi King was Monk/Enchanter/Shaman and sometimes a Cleric, either a player or a pocket Cleric.

There are plenty of situations where safety is superior to a 2 second increase in kill speed. Camps can be taken if you wipe, so why risk it for 0 gains via DPS?

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I will say this: emergencies when they do arise are the responsibility of everyone in the group. 3 players in this theoretical group already have massive (the best) capabilities to deal with these circumstances: enchanter x2 and cleric for reasons that should be OBVIOUS.

Can a mage help out? Yep. It’s called using your pet to tank and lock down crap and/or unloading your mana bar. In a full, reckless/feckless burn a mage can crank out around 200dps (+/-) a bit depending on resists to get shit dead. If the shit is dead, no emergency. Or how about dash out of range and CoTH the cleric to wipe aggro and then take one for the team (suicide) so the group can hard reboot. Or heck even quick camp the inevitable wipe and CoTH the cleric back to a safe spot to rez in?

None of this should ever happen (ever) in a group of competent players.

So yeah. Mages do more than twice the damage of shamans. The group doesn’t need the shaman utility or safety net.

So the mage is more than twice as desirable as the shaman.

Glad DSM and I finally agree!

I feel like there's a strong chance DSM has never actually been in a group with 2 good encs and a good cleric before. He absolutely refuses to believe they won't constantly be in danger or making mistakes that only a shaman can correct for some reason. If that's been his only experience then you can't really fault him for feeling like his utility/heals matter. I think the rest of us are painfully aware of how unneeded shaman utility/heals are in a group like this consisting of good players. He keeps trying to belittle how much extra benefit you get from more DPS but the problem is with the right players in this group comp you get literally 0 benefit from the utility and heals he provides. They simply don't need it. Any amount of DPS is better and it doesn't matter how many extra kills you do or don't get.

The most common group I had at Fungi King was Monk/Enchanter/Shaman and sometimes a Cleric, either a player or a pocket Cleric.

Question isn't whats the most common group for x camp. This isn't a class popularity contest. You can do fungi camp with a wide variety of sub-optimal groups. It's not THAT hard of a camp in the first place. The question AGAIN is what is the BEST group of casters/priests overall. You seem to forget what the actual question is and steer off into the weeds very frequently.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I feel like there's a strong chance DSM has never actually been in a group with 2 good encs and a good cleric before. He absolutely refuses to believe they won't constantly be in danger or making mistakes that only a shaman can correct for some reason. If that's been his only experience then you can't really fault him for feeling like his utility/heals matter. I think the rest of us are painfully aware of how unneeded shaman utility/heals are in a group like this consisting of good players. He keeps trying to belittle how much extra benefit you get from more DPS but the problem is with the right players in this group comp you get literally 0 benefit from the utility and heals he provides. They simply don't need it. Any amount of DPS is better and it doesn't matter how many extra kills you do or don't get.

I have. The only thing I can assume is people don't really play the game, because DPS increases don't help the party after a certain point. They also assume everybody plays perfect lol.

Whether they know it or not, DPS breakpoints are why most people prefer to play with 3-4 group members rather than 6. You are getting less XP with 6 members, and the DPS increase isn't getting you more kills per hour. It is a lose/lose situation to try and get more DPS via more group members after 3-4 players.

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have

Kinda doubt it. Your definition of good and my definition are different.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Kinda doubt it. Your definition of good and my definition are different.

It is true that our definitions are different. You think "good" is "perfect play". I say that is nonsense.

I have seen plenty of highly experienced players make mistakes.

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Question isn't whats the most common group for x camp. This isn't a class popularity contest. You can do fungi camp with a wide variety of sub-optimal groups. It's not THAT hard of a camp in the first place. The question AGAIN is what is the BEST group of casters/priests overall. You seem to forget what the actual question is and steer off into the weeds very frequently.

Not at all. The problem is you assume an "optimal" group is just whatever group can output the highest DPS, which is incorrect due to diminishing returns. The most effective group for a high value item camp like Fungi King is a group with enough DPS to maximize kills per hour, and minimize the chances of wiping, so you can secure the maximum possible number of kills per play session.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, it is a silly argument to say groups never have problems, even with competent players. Even the best players make mistakes, have lag, etc.

Where did I say groups don’t have problems. This group already has 2 inevitable problems that are destined to repeat … the charms WILL break. What I did say is that this group already has 3 members of the 2 best classes to deal with problems. They don’t need anything your shaman has to offer.

Even if the cleric flat out goes linkdead and has to log back in, 2 enchanters should be able to handle their pets, the mob they are fighting, and keep any adds locked down until the cleric is back in.

Have you never played with a good enchanter? Imagine having 2 of them …

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Where did I say groups don’t have problems. This group already has 2 inevitable problems that are destined to repeat … the charms WILL break. What I did say is that this group already has 3 members of the 2 best classes to deal with problems. They don’t need anything your shaman has to offer.

Even if the cleric flat out goes linkdead and has to log back in, 2 enchanters should be able to handle their pets, the mob they are fighting, and keep any adds locked down until the cleric is back in.

Have you never played with a good enchanter? Imagine having 2 of them …

You said groups don't have problems right here:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

None of this should ever happen (ever) in a group of competent players.

You are contradicting yourself by trying to walk this thin line of saying groups are competent enough to never wipe (don't have problems), but actually do have some problems, but can handle emergencies equally well regardless of their groups composition (level of utility). It's a very shaky argument.

Again, if this magical unicorn of a group exists, they would just run 4x Enchanters and a pocket cleric due to how absolutely pro they are, and how much they believe DPS matters above all else.

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You literally have to make the "players play perfectly" argument to even attempt to show a Shaman isn't necessary.

In irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - you yourself attempted to provide/present raw math as realistic expectations of class performances; you literally tried to remove ANY players from the equation and claimed that "data" was somehow relevant to or had bearing upon this discussion hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Under this argument. Again, this is a silly argument, and I have no idea why it is being made.

Then you may wish to stop "arguing" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) and start having a civil discussion hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The most common group I had at Fungi King was Monk/Enchanter/Shaman and sometimes a Cleric, either a player or a pocket Cleric.

I am not sure what point you believe you are making or what fact you think you are refuting here, and I am not sure why you have brought up that 5th/"pocket" PLAYER or character yet again hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There are plenty of situations where safety is superior to a 2 second increase in kill speed. Camps can be taken if you wipe, so why risk it for 0 gains via DPS?

And if your only healer in a Duo or Trio is a Shaman, you have zero rez available unless you once again move goalposts to allow for a "pocket" Cleric hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Troxx]

300 here we come!

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[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

300 here we come!

Yup, you go back to trolling when you have been proven wrong, yet again.