Best 4 person all caster/priest group - Page 276

PlsNoBan · #**2751** 09-14-2022, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

More or less this.

All the good information and discussion can be found in the first few pages of this thread. It really boiled down to whether or not a group wanted redundant utility or whether they wanted to just kill things faster. DSM tried to make the case that shamans were perfectly good dps. His napkin math showed they were just as good or close but over time were actually better or equal while also bringing utility thusly implying shamans are the clear cut 4th spot winner.

The great dps “debate”:

-We were presented logs of him soloing a level 40 Jin shaman frog (literally the weakest mob in the zone). This was not relevant to the topic.
-then we got some napkin math about med rates, nukes per hour … you name it …
-We were later gifted yet another solo rot/dot fight of him and his pet on a zone in golem. Again … not relevant to the discussion.
-we watched him misinterpret parses given to him. Claiming I was nuking 4-8 times (lol) for 825 per pop per fight assuming that all “hits” from my mage were nukes and not remembering my pet nukes.
-we watched him ignore breakout fights showing a LOW of high 70s dps and a HIGH of over 175dps with the average floating 100-120 which was right where I said my non-epic, non-focus, no clicky boots mage would be in a fast moving group.
-we later saw Ally’s 58 mage put up similar numbers (granted we don’t know what kind of group she was in but I digress…)
-WE NEVER SAW DSM ONCE JOIN A FAST MOVING, HIGH DPS GROUP TO SHOW HOW HIS SHAMAN COULD PERFORM … only napkin math.

Side tangents we saw:

-a couple of dozen pages of him talking about how enchanters can’t really solo effectively until level 32, going so far as to say his no regen mildly twinked warrior at 27ish could do more dps than an unhasted level 17-18 charm pet as evidence that enchanters don’t solo well after they get charm (lol). We were given single fights for each. We pointed out that the charm pet was 10ish levels lower than his warrior, unhasted, and ignored the fact that done properly an enchanter can chain solo with no down time while the warrior will eventually have to stop. It’s a shame he felt the need to stack odds so aggressively to try and prove something we all know is BS. Ironically this side tangent dozens of pages in length was not even relevant.
-several more dozen pages involving this theoretical group having a pocket cleric to log in as needed to rationalize having the shaman in the group (lol wtf?)

The focus of discussion has flipped so often it’s hard to keep track. Goalposts are constantly moving and any time hard reality slaps an autist in the face there is shameless redirection or attempts to flat out ignore data not consistent with an autist’s agenda. In 23 years of playing this game and haunting forums I have NEVER seen anything as hilariously obtuse as this thread.

This really is simple. Any 4 man best caster group will have at a minimum a cleric and an enchanter. Charm is so overpowered that the obvious 3rd choice is another enchanter. This leaves one spot left with 4 possible choices.

A). Choice A is a 4th enchanter. Most dps. Some added risk. No additional anything but yes the most dps. As a cleric in this group I might go a little nutty having 3 potential targets to blast heal and 3 pets that will also eventually need a heal but if played well the enchanters should have any pet break on lockdown immediately.

B). Choice B is a mage who brings additional value of malo debuffs for pets, CoTH, pet haste masks, DS, a beefy pet to stand in the event charms break or simply to do great dps and nuke dps potential which is always welcome and never wasted because it isn’t a dot. As has been shown already, a good mage is a respectable 100-120 dps at the high end (more with pet focus, epic, and/or Velk boots). That is strong dps and honestly not far behind a high end quadding, hasted pet. It’s as strong or close to as strong as a standard “safe” xp group pet hasted or quadding. Strong dps, no added risk, additional perks added (malo likely the best of them)

C). Choice C is a necromancer who brings additional value of FD, backup rez, undead charm potential, additional pet which isn’t bad for the same reasons mage pet isn’t bad, ok-ish nukes and personal dps (they aren’t efficient but lich is some awesome mana regen). On top of that they bring some redundancy in that they have a good Cc tool kit and can heal pretty well (but the group doesn’t need it). On the whole a decent add for dps alone with summon pet and personal nukes but with utility that ISNT redundant and adds palpable value.

D). Choice D is a shaman. Shamans add value with malo. They have the worst pet option with low dps but it can take a few hits. They can nuke to add some dps but not efficient, lower impact hits and longer cast times. Mediocre dps when trying hard. They do have an expansive toolkit but this is where the redundancy kicks in. You won’t need the heals, slows, roots. Dots are worthless as stuff will die to fast. They do bring a measure of increased safety but with a cleric and TWO enchanters … how much safer can you get?? So yeah. Poor to mediocre dps. Maybe good in short burst of chain nuking but that still falls behind B or C. Tons of utility that unfortunately … is not unique to what the group already has other than malo.

I will close by quoting my very first post in this thread below. I still stand by it.

This is a fantastic and accurate summation of the events of this thread so far. Also ROFL at DSM saying the question doesn't specifically say you can't have a pocket cleric. It also doesn't say you can't have an entire raid out of group assisting you. Is that the next goalpost moving argument? How about hacking the game to boost shaman DPS? The question doesn't specifically say you can't

DeathsSilkyMist · #**2752** 09-14-2022, 01:39 PM

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

cyxthryth · #**2753** 09-14-2022, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You still need to prove that doesn't translate to a group. You have yet to do so lol.

The problem is that your post would seem to imply that you have forgotten - or are for some reason attempting to pretend that you have forgotten - that you have already admitted in this very thread the irrefutable fact that being in a group introduces variables which affect DPS (in your words "skew data") hehe. This irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - is the reason that the data you captured solo (with none of the variables that groupmates would introduce), is irrelevant to this discussion, that is specifically/explicitly about the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" hehe. Remember, speaking strictly mathematically, 4=/=5.

I will remind you of your own admission of your knowledge of these variables, via your own posts (which are self-evident and viewable by all):

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What you don't understand is once you are in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

The above Quotes prove that your - laughable - claim that "You still need to prove that doesn't translate to a group. You have yet to do so lol." is objectively false hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A Shaman is doing around 55 DPS with pet and nuking twice per fight, they can afford to do so via Torpor.

You have provided zero evidence that supports your claim that "A Shaman is doing around 55 DPS with pet and nuking twice per fight, they can afford to do so via Torpor." - thus it is an unsubstantiated (and probably false) claim hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This really isn't hard. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

cyxthryth · #**2754** 09-14-2022, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

The current data is as follows for anybody who has forgotten what DSM has said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.

Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that he believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe.

PlsNoBan · #**2755** 09-14-2022, 01:44 PM

Ooh we're back to spamming copy pasted posts full of bullshit. Excellent strategy. I'm sure it'll be very convincing for all the silent readers.

cyxthryth · #**2756** 09-14-2022, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also ROFL at DSM saying the question doesn't specifically say you can't have a pocket cleric. It also doesn't say you can't have an entire raid out of group assisting you. Is that the next goalpost moving argument? How about hacking the game to boost shaman DPS? The question doesn't specifically say you can't

Hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DeathsSilkyMist · #**2757** 09-14-2022, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ooh we're back to spamming copy pasted posts full of bullshit. Excellent strategy. I'm sure it'll be very convincing for all the silent readers.

Yup. Copy/pasting the facts that haven't been disproven so they don't get drowned out by trolls is superior to your strategy of trolling.

Remember when you admitted to trolling?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Everyone (including you) has trolled at various points in this thread. Troll posts are not the majority of my posts. I have zero issue admitting when I'm doing so. Unlike some of us [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Troxx · #**2758** 09-14-2022, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

-120 mage dps is more than double 55 shaman dps.
-In order to do that dps you are only casting dps and not doing any utility.
-the group didn’t need your utility to begin with.

So the mage is more twice as good as the shaman.

Awesome, glad we can agree.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your data. Your math. Not mine.

The group doesn’t need anything else from you.

Glad we agree.

DeathsSilkyMist · #**2759** 09-14-2022, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your data. Your math. Not mine.

The group doesn’t need anything else from you.

Glad we agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

-120 mage dps is more than double 55 shaman dps.
-In order to do that dps you are only casting dps and not doing any utility.
-the group didn’t need your utility to begin with.

So the mage is more twice as good as the shaman.

Awesome, glad we can agree.

Nope.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, this is a nonsense argument.

The Mage can only DPS. If your group only needs DPS during a specific encounter, your Shaman can just do DPS.

The benefit to a Shaman is the Shaman can switch out of DPS mode at any time. Your Mage is stuck in DPS mode forever, and can't help the party when an emergency occurs.

DPS has diminishing returns, so 65 DPS means less if your group's DPS is already really high.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would love to get some raw DPS data from Enchanters. I am literally just using your own data. It is hilarious you keep blaming me for your own data.

But the Enchanter pets doing more DPS hurts your argument further lol.

If the Enchanters are doing 220 DPS with pets, the math looks like this:

Your group is doing roughly 340 DPS with the Epic Mage, and 275 DPS with the Shaman.

The difference in time is 23.5 seconds vs. 29 seconds. The time difference drops to 5.5 seconds.

DPS has diminishing returns on kill speed the more you stack.

Troxx · #**2760** 09-14-2022, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

-120 mage dps is more than double 55 shaman dps.
-In order to do that dps you are only casting dps and not doing any utility.
-the group didn’t need your utility to begin with.

So the mage is more twice as good as the shaman.

Awesome, glad we can agree.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your data. Your math. Not mine.

The group doesn’t need anything else from you.

Glad we agree.