BDA to Phinigel

[derpcake]

Originally Posted by zanderklocke [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Theoretically, two high level players in shitty gear should always add more value than one high level player in good gear, assuming the same class composition.

EQ doesn't work that way.

If gear wasn't important, people would run naked chars.

AE's (on raids) and space (dungeons) reduce the value of extra characters.

20 badly geared wars will not let you tank AoW.

When splitting loot you want to have as few players as possible.

And so on

[zanderklocke]

Originally Posted by derpcake [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

EQ doesn't work that way.

If gear wasn't important, people would run naked chars.

AE's (on raids) and space (dungeons) reduce the value of extra characters.

20 badly geared wars will not let you tank AoW.

When splitting loot you want to have as few players as possible.

And so on

I'll admit that some gear is useful and agree with you somewhat. To your points:

1. AEs are more detrimental when you have more players. Yes
2. Warriors absolutely need great gear for high end mobs. They (and specifically main tanks) probably are the one class that do receive more added value for gear per character than having multiple characters of the same class.
3. Splitting loot point. I think this is irrelevant. This is more how often people want to be rewarded and has little impact on effectiveness of playing the game to compete against other players or the mechanics of the environmental mobs.

However, on contrary. Without taking AE's into account or heaviest hitting mobs in the game and keeping player skill the same, which would have more output DPS: One rogue in very high end gear or two rogues in low to medium end gear? Alternatively, keeping player skill levels the same, would you rather have one cleric in high end gear or two clerics in low to medium end gear healing you?

I think your points are good, but overall in terms of gear mattering a lot, I think "it depends". Other games have much more noticeable different effects from equipment upgrades compared to Classic EverQuest.

[derpcake]

Originally Posted by zanderklocke [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

3. Splitting loot point. I think this is irrelevant. This is more how often people want to be rewarded and has little impact on effectiveness of playing the game to compete against other players or the mechanics of the environmental mobs.

However, on contrary. Without taking AE's into account or heaviest hitting mobs in the game and keeping player skill the same, which would have more output DPS: One rogue in very high end gear or two rogues in low to medium end gear? Alternatively, keeping player skill levels the same, would you rather have one cleric in high end gear or two clerics in low to medium end gear healing you?

This stuff just doesn't take the realities of EQ into account.

I'd rather have 1 high end cleric and one high end rogue with a sleepers tomb key, then 4 shitty ones and half of them having to sit out due to lack of key.

I'd also rather divide primals amongst 5 high end rogues, compared to 10 shitty ones.

Having 10 shitty rogues implies you need X bards and Y shamans, so you have to lower standards for those also, and it cascades into a crap guild from there.

[derpcake]

You also state "keeping player levels the same", guess what, there usually is a reason people have bad gear, and it isn't because they are all-star veterans.

Trust me on that.

[derpcake]

skill* levels [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[nhdjoseywales]

Originally Posted by zanderklocke [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll admit that some gear is useful and agree with you somewhat. To your points:

1. AEs are more detrimental when you have more players. Yes
2. Warriors absolutely need great gear for high end mobs. They (and specifically main tanks) probably are the one class that do receive more added value for gear per character than having multiple characters of the same class.
3. Splitting loot point. I think this is irrelevant. This is more how often people want to be rewarded and has little impact on effectiveness of playing the game to compete against other players or the mechanics of the environmental mobs.

However, on contrary. Without taking AE's into account or heaviest hitting mobs in the game and keeping player skill the same, which would have more output DPS: One rogue in very high end gear or two rogues in low to medium end gear? Alternatively, keeping player skill levels the same, would you rather have one cleric in high end gear or two clerics in low to medium end gear healing you?

I think your points are good, but overall in terms of gear mattering a lot, I think "it depends". Other games have much more noticeable different effects from equipment upgrades compared to Classic EverQuest.

it's like you dont understand basic math and how it affects mechanics. rogues with shitty gear will lack the atk needed to reliably hit a mob like vulak or aow and thus one high end rogue will indeed outdamage his two shittily geared companions. 1 cleric with sufficient mana regen and mana pool and heal foci will heal better than 2 shitty geared ones. 1 wizard with velk robe, id3 focus, and tons of mana regen will beat two shitty geared wizards that nuke 5 times and have to sit oom doing no dps while mr velk robe clicks away.

as for splits, why the fuck wouldnt you do them if you can? gee, 5 pieces of BiS loot this week guys or 10, hmm, thats fucking tough.

[mattydef]

I have 4 characters all fully epic'd in world of warcraft, get on my level scrubs.

[zanderklocke]

Originally Posted by nhdjoseywales [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

it's like you dont understand basic math and how it affects mechanics. rogues with shitty gear will lack the atk needed to reliably hit a mob like vulak or aow and thus one high end rogue will indeed outdamage his two shittily geared companions. 1 cleric with sufficient mana regen and mana pool and heal foci will heal better than 2 shitty geared ones. 1 wizard with velk robe, id3 focus, and tons of mana regen will beat two shitty geared wizards that nuke 5 times and have to sit oom doing no dps while mr velk robe clicks away.

as for splits, why the fuck wouldnt you do them if you can? gee, 5 pieces of BiS loot this week guys or 10, hmm, thats fucking tough.

Originally, when I made my argument about gear not mattering that much in EverQuest, I was actually thinking about other games like a shooter where having a rocket launcher vs a pistol would make a big difference. Whereas in EverQuest, gear doesn't fundamentally change game play that much. All casters of the same type have the same spells, and all melee of the same type have the same few options of skills. People just have higher or lower primary stats based on their gear.

In terms of loot splits, I said I don't care or cited irrelevance because how loot is distributed among players has no bearing on the programmed mechanics of the game. Yes, players want to get more loot spread out among few players, but that does not change the game design or mechanics programmed into the game.

However, I'm not mathematically convinced that, for all classes, output of one high-end character is going to be higher than two low-end to medium-end characters. I'd want to see logs that that melee DPS of one character was higher than melee DPS of two low-end characters of the same class. I have a hard time believing that one rogue will out damage two other rogue's summation of DPS. Likewise, I have a hard time believing that two clerics with lower-end gear will not a have a higher combined mana pool than one high end cleric. However, I will admit, I approach this problem with a Kunark mindset because I have not played a lot of Velious. I will believe you if I see mathematical proof or logs that verify your point.

[arsenalpow]

Got an abashi's last night, an excellent pulling tool. Also, Nev hates dropping her cloak, the warriors are getting restless.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Got an abashi's last night, an excellent pulling tool. Also, Nev hates dropping her cloak, the warriors are getting restless.

Every warrior worth his salt will replace that cloak with the loyalists shield anyways.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=15971

High AC or GTFO.

I hated HP whoring tanks on live. They absolutely got crushed and were a waste of my time to group or raid with.