Best 4 person all caster/priest group - Page 271

Gloomlord · #**2701** 09-13-2022, 07:03 PM

Why bring a "pocket cleric" into this?

How is not an admission of defeat right here?

PlsNoBan · #**2702** 09-13-2022, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So far:
-shamans are almost as good dps as mages (wrong)
-warriors solo better than enchanters after they get charm (wrong)
-shamans can root rot 5 mobs in fast moving xp groups to “help out” (wrong)
-unnecessary utility is better than more dps cause moar heals/utility always bettah (wrong)
-we are bringing pocket clerics into this theoretical discussion (lol wtf?)

This is pretty accurate. The goalpost moving and changing arguments on the fly is getting out of hand lol. You can't have an honest discussion with someone that won't even acknowledge when they're backed into a corner and pinned down with a contradiction of their own words. His own data that he loves so much proves the opposite of his initial argument and he won't even admit that. He just moved the goalpost and changed the argument to "DPS doesn't matter after this arbitrary DSM breakpoint that I made up" so he can act like his useless utility and heals matter more. It's funny how hyper focused he was on proving how much DPS shamans can do then the data proved mages do way more and on a fucking dime he changes to "DPS dont matter if its not enough to get an entire extra spawn cycle in like an hour cause nobody on p99 plays the game all day long (lol)" which is completely ludicrous for a variety of reasons. The pocket cleric argument is ALMOST the most retarded thing he's ever said. Warriors soloing better than enchanters still holds the crown tho imo.

Said it before and will say it again: Either biggest troll I've ever seen or legitimately one of the stupidest. Not sure which is better honestly. I guess 3rd possible option is he's legitimately mentally handicapped IRL and we're all pieces of shit for making fun of the disabled kid. Not really our fault tho there's no way for anyone to know.

PlsNoBan · #**2703** 09-13-2022, 07:18 PM

I keep half expecting DSM's mom to start posting about how he has issues and we all need to stop making fun of him

P.S. DSM's mom if you're reading this and he actually has some kind of issue please say something or at least DM me. I may be a dick but I'm not trying to make fun of people with actual mental disabilities.

Karanis · #**2704** 09-13-2022, 09:49 PM

thrust.jpg

DeathsSilkyMist · #**2705** 09-14-2022, 12:00 AM

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

cyxthryth · #**2706** 09-14-2022, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

The current data is as follows for anybody who has forgotten what DSM has said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.

Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that he believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Kich867 · #**2707** 09-14-2022, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So far:
-shamans are almost as good dps as mages (wrong)
-warriors solo better than enchanters after they get charm (wrong)
-shamans can root rot 5 mobs in fast moving xp groups to “help out” (wrong)
-unnecessary utility is better than more dps cause moar heals/utility always bettah (wrong)
-we are bringing pocket clerics into this theoretical discussion (lol wtf?)

This thread keeps on giving!

The rest is whatever, but, the point about warriors was that at low levels, pre-30ish, a twinked warrior levels faster than enchanters. If it's not faster, I'm sure it's quite close, but I'm pretty sure you could level a twinked warrior faster than you could level a twinked [any caster] because twinking melee characters is extremely powerful at low levels relative to casters.

Like, starting fresh twinked characters, the warrior would get a huge lead anyways because they basically insta-kill everything they touch until they're like level 15.

I don't care how you feel about DSM but people trying to say that low level twinked casters are somehow faster at soloing than twinked [any melee character] who have just way, way higher DPS and tankiness at those levels makes me think I'm taking crazy pills. Once the bullshit of twink gear fades, totally, I agree with you, the raw power of casters is just better, but low level mobs aren't really designed to handle the damage output of the dank ass weapons, haste, and regen items you can give melee characters.

I've never heard the take that low level melee twinks are bad at leveling, ever. Am I crazy? Like I honestly can't tell if this is just some stupid contrarian take because you don't like DSM or you've just never given a melee character dope gear and plowed through the beginning of the game before.

PlsNoBan · #**2708** 09-14-2022, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kich867 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The rest is whatever, but, the point about warriors was that at low levels, pre-30ish, a twinked warrior levels faster than enchanters. If it's not faster, I'm sure it's quite close, but I'm pretty sure you could level a twinked warrior faster than you could level a twinked [any caster] because twinking melee characters is extremely powerful at low levels relative to casters.

Like, starting fresh twinked characters, the warrior would get a huge lead anyways because they basically insta-kill everything they touch until they're like level 15.

I don't care how you feel about DSM but people trying to say that low level twinked casters are somehow faster at soloing than twinked [any melee character] who have just way, way higher DPS and tankiness at those levels makes me think I'm taking crazy pills. Once the bullshit of twink gear fades, totally, I agree with you, the raw power of casters is just better, but low level mobs aren't really designed to handle the damage output of the dank ass weapons, haste, and regen items you can give melee characters.

I've never heard the take that low level melee twinks are bad at leveling, ever. Am I crazy? Like I honestly can't tell if this is just some stupid contrarian take because you don't like DSM or you've just never given a melee character dope gear and plowed through the beginning of the game before.

He specifically said no fungi/regen items. He had like 2 mediocre weapons and a SCHW and claimed to out solo an enchanter cause his DPS was higher than a charm pet in his mid 20s. First of all: debatable and depends on the charm pet and what weapons. You also have to consider damage caps for melee at low lvl limiting the effectiveness of twink weapons. He also openly admitted to not hasting his charm pets in this comparison. He also acted like it was an absurd idea that you could get free mage pet toys in EC for your charms. Something I did frequently when leveling my enc. None of that matters though cause fact of the matter is that without a fungi and the only twinking being weapons and a SCHW a warrior is going to have fairly large periods of downtime. The DPS could be 3x higher than a charm pet (it's not) and warrior would still lose due to downtime. There's no fucking chance a warrior solos with less downtime than an enc with no regen item or buffs. DSM in typical DSM fashion completely disregarded this and just kept talking about his questionable DPS data cause that's what suited his agenda at that particular moment. It changes frequently around here.

Everyone knows heavy twinking with fungi is a game changer. A fully twinked warrior with fungi almost certainly will solo more effectively in early levels. I'm not sure precisely when the enchanter would overtake warrior regardless of twink status. Probably somewhere around low-mid 30s? Certainly by 40 a well played enc is clowning a warrior no matter what they're wearing. Charm pets start to scale and become significantly more powerful than melee players of equivalent level. Also the effectiveness of a fungi tunic gets significantly weaker the higher level you get. Unless you're soloing weak LB's for minimal xp you're still going to have way more downtime than enc. Prolly more downtime even killing LB's at 40+

Karanis · #**2709** 09-14-2022, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

He specifically said no fungi/regen items. He had like 2 mediocre weapons and a SCHW and claimed to out solo an enchanter cause his DPS was higher than a charm pet in his mid 20s. First of all: debatable and depends on the charm pet and what weapons. He also openly admitted to not hasting his charm pets in this comparison. He also acted like it was an absurd idea that you could get free mage pet toys in EC for your charms. Something I did frequently when leveling my enc. None of that matters though cause fact of the matter is that without a fungi and the only twinking being weapons and a SCHW a warrior is going to have fairly large periods of downtime. The DPS could be 3x higher than a charm pet (it's not) and warrior would still lose due to downtime. There's no fucking chance a warrior solos with less downtime than an enc with no regen item or buffs.

DSM in typical DSM fashion completely disregarded this and just kept talking about his questionable DPS data cause that's what suited his agenda at that particular moment. It changes frequently around here.

thrust.jpg

Jimjam · #**2710** 09-14-2022, 02:35 AM

I went to velks spiders the other day. I pulled the usual way for current meta (up to 5 mobs a time) and shaman was root rotting adds with epic. So it does happen in a ‘real’ context.

Hows the thread gone since Ally posted mage logs? I wish I had been there to cotp/son the pet [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]