And I raaaaaan, I raaaan so far awaaaayyyy

[snow_man]

For those wondering on the numbers, it was FE + BDA. I think about 30 total.

Still in favor of a /raid and let the exp from the highest DPS /raid take the phats. No room for interpretation, no crying foul about FTE, just straight up damage vs. damage.

Single group exp won't work. 6 wizards/rogues/high dps grouped up vs. a guild of multiple groups, the pure dps group will take the exp and the other challenger just ends up tanking for the opposing dps group. That's why I go for a /raid... if you have 40 your likely to outdps the 6 wizards...

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by snow_man [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For those wondering on the numbers, it was FE + BDA. I think about 30 total.

Still in favor of a /raid and let the exp from the highest DPS /raid take the phats. No room for interpretation, no crying foul about FTE, just straight up damage vs. damage.

Single group exp won't work. 6 wizards/rogues/high dps grouped up vs. a guild of multiple groups, the pure dps group will take the exp and the other challenger just ends up tanking for the opposing dps group. That's why I go for a /raid... if you have 40 your likely to outdps the 6 wizards...

wouldn't work. Any guild can field 6 strong DPS.

Not all guilds can compete with the larger guilds.

[snow_man]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

wouldn't work. Any guild can field 6 strong DPS.

Not all guilds can compete with the larger guilds.

That's why I say create a /raid system. Unlimited ammount of groups all /raided together. In the case of yesterday it would have meant if both guilds charged in at the same time, whoever layed down the DPS would have one between the two groups.

And the same for future encounters. No more FTE, just a straight up dps fight. If two guilds charge the mob at the same time, whichever guild/raid (not group) puts in the most DPS gets the exp and gets the loot.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by snow_man [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's why I say create a /raid system. Unlimited ammount of groups all /raided together. In the case of yesterday it would have meant if both guilds charged in at the same time, whoever layed down the DPS would have one between the two groups.

And the same for future encounters. No more FTE, just a straight up dps fight. If two guilds charge the mob at the same time, whichever guild/raid (not group) puts in the most DPS gets the exp and gets the loot.

so, in your system, you are saying that

TMO with 125 wouldn't have an advantage with dps over Divinity with 35?

[Ephi]

Originally Posted by Ele [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So to clarify, if no GM/Guide is present to witness nor fraps/log evidence is presented, a simple FTE in the encounter log will rule the day?

If a GM/Guide is present they will subjectively analyze the situation to judge whether or not a "sufficient raid force" is present and/or a "sufficient attempt" was made?

FTE will not count if a "raid" only has one person on the encounter log?

At this point, the thread stating the raiding rules needs to be updated to account for the individual rulings and nuances in the multitude of threads that have occurred since it was last revised.

This is not in any way an accurate depiction. You cannot narrow down complex decisions and scenarios to 3 bullet points.

GMs will make decisions to the best of their abilities with the information made available to them, whether server logs of player fraps or whatever.

It has always been this way. Absolutely nothing has changed.

[snow_man]

If Divinity waits for 125 TMO to show up, that's their issue, but most of the time the fight is 2 monks tag teaming to keep FTE until that 125 shows up. If the two tmo monks are tag teaming the FTE and divinity shows up with 20 charges in gets the mob to 45% then tmo's 50 show up and finish off the mob, Divinity would end up getting the exp and loots. Wouldn't matter that someone kited a dragon around.

Vice versa, Divinity would be hard pressed to run in and charge the mob with their 35, because it would take a while to get 125 TMOs formed up into 6 man groups then manually raid invite each of the 21 group leaders and wait for confirmation.

In the end though, it would leave nothing to interpretation from a GM. GM's then have no worries about someone yelling "Bias" everytime a mob dies because they have to pick the loot winnder.

Also, it would remove the confusion of, "Do we have FTE? Should we continue killing this mob for the competiting guild?" Instead it would become a we engaged put the DPS down ASAP.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Wrei [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Seems to me these "GM discretion calls" will only result in more threads from whoever is butt hurt on the outcome. Rules may promote the spirit of fairness but they are there to maintain consistency not "trying to do the right thing". From time to time, some will genuinely get shafted over something but that's when the rules can get modified to accommodate such eventualities. Not changed on the fly (however merited) by a GM. If you maintain the stance that "we'll always have to come in and make you crybabies play nice it will only lead to more drama.

GM's should deal with all other issues bugs/scams etc... anything BUT the raid loot scene (unless the boss bugs loot). People are all inherently greedy, if you open things to interpretations, they will only try to twist it to their advantage and spin it here by playing the victim card. Instead of trying to decide who is right and wrong in this instance it may be time to take a serious look at the rules themselves. Make it more black and white so little drama queens will have a harder time trying to spin it. There's plenty of options, perhaps a thread on the server board by a GM to ask the masses what the new rules should reflect will be more productive than two guilds pissing each other here.

As for this particular instance, it all boils down to how many people FE had in zone. "Raidforce" is really a tricky business, I mean it's obvious TMO feels FE was just trolling with the snipe as they didn't have enough to down CT (What is that number btw TMO? Is it like less than 40 = GTFO? Sorry [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]). Cause if FE Did have legit numbers to down him then yeah from their perspective it would be a straight ks fest after they felt they got the tag. It could also be argued FE even with the bare minimum was not "Ready" to engage and just tagged early in the hopes TMO kills CT for them and they could sketch out the loot like true pro raiders (ok I'll stop :P).

See where I'm going with this? Everyone will have a different opinion and even if it were frapsed, everyone would have a different interpretation of it. Not claiming Ephi did the wrong decision, just saying the fact he had to make a "gut call" is what makes the whole rule situation silly and open to debate.

Either hard code FTE with a clear shout, if opposing guilds do more dmg than FTE guild then ban their accounts for 6months. Force rotations between raid ready guild (I'm sure the mass of casuals will all jizz over this idea). KS group determines Loot rights. Allow everything to go, training, ks'ing... and start a Darwinian process of retards until they realize cooperation is better than ass munching. W/e it is, decide on something other than "We'll decide on a case by case basis if the rules apply here".

PS: Still would like to know how many FE had in zone ready when CT got aggroed, and would still like to hear what a "raid force" is under the TMO standards.

Its not about numbers, its about the fact they "claim" they were trying to pull CT. With Fear at full pop numbers just help you down CT before the train wipes you. "Pulling" CT just allows the train to catch up faster and more DT's to go out.

Pulling CT is a fail tactic even for 40 people.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Ephi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is not in any way an accurate depiction. You cannot narrow down complex decisions and scenarios to 3 bullet points.

GMs will make decisions to the best of their abilities with the information made available to them, whether server logs of player fraps or whatever.

It has always been this way. Absolutely nothing has changed.

I agree completely, GM's have always made judgment calls when they are at raids. When they aren't there obviously they have to go off logs or fraps.

Logs or fraps hardly ever explain the full situation so my preferable situations would be to have a GM watch every raid, or to have no staff involvement in raid disputes and allow us to run wild.
Preferably, the second option.

[Tanthallas]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Its not about numbers, its about the fact they "claim" they were trying to pull CT. With Fear at full pop numbers just help you down CT before the train wipes you. "Pulling" CT just allows the train to catch up faster and more DT's to go out.

Pulling CT is a fail tactic even for 40 people.

Make Alarti GM of loot decisions IMO. His arguments are so arbitrary that it would probably be the most equitable way of distributing loot.

[snow_man]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Its not about numbers, its about the fact they "claim" they were trying to pull CT. With Fear at full pop numbers just help you down CT before the train wipes you. "Pulling" CT just allows the train to catch up faster and more DT's to go out.

Pulling CT is a fail tactic even for 40 people.

I don't think its about the numbers, or the pull. It's the fact that every time a raid mob dies on this server, it comes down to GM interpretation. That interpretation varies each time, depending on if the GM was there or not, depending on if guild a interfered with guild b, depending on if guild a wasted too much time with their FTE pulling so guild b got default... There's too much gray space and it turns into a lawyer match after every boss dies. Time for a system that removes the impression of favoritism, the yelling of bias, and the room for discretionary calls.