Ragefire Agreement/Rotation

[Metallikus]

Originally Posted by Bruman [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maestro and Draco. Neither were "against rules", but they weren't playing nicely either. Taken was leap-frogged at Maestro.



BDA did not have a shot at Draco. IB was in the zone "training how to train", when Draco popped on them. IB notifies VD that Draco spawned, then starts camping/gating because of their raid suspension. BDA and Taken were the only guilds tracking in the zone. BDA zones in, only to find IB with their small train (like 6-10 mobs, BDA had cleared the zone earlier) along with Draco right at the fear portal. BDA wiped due to the train, and while IB rezzed us due to their unintentional wipe, VD killed Draco.

I do believe that it was all unintentional, but given the close relationship between IB and VD, you can imagine others don't believe so. It was horrible form regardless.

I actuall feel bad for Taken. They watched Maestro pop, had 15 in zone, and did nothing for 15 minutes. We popped in a tracker saw it up, made the call to go up in case they wiped only to see them sitting AFk out of agro range. BDA also ran up at the same time as VD. VD engaged, end of story.

Draco, I have no idea why IB was kiting around mobs and accidentally got draco near fear portal. "Training excercise" obviously. BDA decided to zone in and fight draco, and kept pouring in. VD waited outside fear, did a normal WW break, and pulled Draco there after.

VD has acted honorably as we always do. We aren't training, being sneaky with FTE tactics, and have given the other guilds sufficient time to engage and wipe on most if not all targets (we deliberately reset our agro on Gore pull to allow BDA a chance to pull when it looked like there might be a FTE disagreement; Talendor was left up 1 and half hours before we engaged after Div/taken wipe; Naggy was up 45 min before we engaged after another Div/Taken wipe; ect).

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Metallikus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Draco, I have no idea why IB was kiting around mobs and accidentally got draco near fear portal. "Training excercise" obviously. BDA decided to zone in and fight draco, and kept pouring in. VD waited outside fear, did a normal WW break, and pulled Draco there after.

VD has acted honorably as we always do. We aren't training, being sneaky with FTE tactics, and have given the other guilds sufficient time to engage and wipe on most if not all targets (we deliberately reset our agro on Gore pull to allow BDA a chance to pull when it looked like there might be a FTE disagreement; Talendor was left up 1 and half hours before we engaged after Div/taken wipe; Naggy was up 45 min before we engaged after another Div/Taken wipe; ect).

There was only 4 mobs up, IB claiming some sort of kite training is laughable at best and a violation of their raid ban at worst. A "WW break" is also kind of ridiculous since the zone was cleared.

I'm not insinuating that BDA had a right to Draco, it's a race, but to have VD benefit from an IB train is frustrating beyond words when we were first on the scene.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Bruman [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maestro and Draco. Neither were "against rules", but they weren't playing nicely either. Taken was leap-frogged at Maestro.



BDA did not have a shot at Draco. IB was in the zone "training how to train", when Draco popped on them. IB notifies VD that Draco spawned, then starts camping/gating because of their raid suspension. BDA and Taken were the only guilds tracking in the zone. BDA zones in, only to find IB with their small train (like 6-10 mobs, BDA had cleared the zone earlier) along with Draco right at the fear portal. BDA wiped due to the train, and while IB rezzed us due to their unintentional wipe, VD killed Draco.

I do believe that it was all unintentional, but given the close relationship between IB and VD, you can imagine others don't believe so. It was horrible form regardless.

We cleared fear aside from 4 glare lords, and maybe a fetid or Samhain near boogey house.

We had 35+ ready for Draco within 3 minutes of him popping and our raid force zoned into IB training Draco to the fear portal. Intentional or unintentional, the GMs can sort that out. The fact remains that VD benefitted from IB's Draco train and we couldn't get an attempt in. It's frustrating to say the least.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We cleared fear aside from 4 glare lords, and maybe a fetid or Samhain near boogey house.

We had 35+ ready for Draco within 3 minutes of him popping and our raid force zoned into IB training Draco to the fear portal.

Who was the FD spotter in Fear for your guild who called for your raid force to zone into a train? Blame THAT guy, IMO.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Metallikus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is all of a sudden the PR thing to do for Stealin since his entire guild can't touch dragons, he's on some holy crusade to do good for the lower tier guilds (or maybe jsut for Ninik)...that all changes of course when he can get back to stealin dragons.

Where was his holy crusade when IB and TMO were rotating Ragefires? Why didn't he step in and get Ninik inserted in there somewhere? Why won't his guild agree to some sort of rotation?

VD is all for a rotation, always has been. Get your shit straight and make an agreement that stands for more than a week that you guys are suspended, we will honor it immediately even during the week we have the most uncontested mobilization for targets.

Hell, why not rotate CT while we are at it?

CT won't be rotated for the same reason Trak won't be rotated with you by choice...IB and VD are one guild. It would be idiotic to give a force that raids together for every single target outside of VP an independent slot in a rotation when we could just compete with you 50/50 like we do now.

(I speak for no one in TMO but myself)

[Tricky Beverage]

Amen to everything that Motec just posted.

As a cleric of VD who is affected by this rotation, let me start by saying that I have two major concerns with the proposed rotation. I think I speak to the concerns of most of the VD players responding in this thread. These concerns are particularly important to me because I am coming up on 40 hours of waiting for Ragefire to spawn (I've been here the longest post-patch of any cleric other than Emmdano). As you can see from my time stamp, it's currently 6am EST (and I've been here all night).

However, before I address my concerns about the rotation, I suggest that we all set aside our differences for a moment and band together on something that will affect us ALL to a much greater extent over the long haul than the rotation particulars. It probably is not common knowledge yet (since only VD has really been here in force post-patch), but the Ragefire spawn cycle is definitely NOT working as it should be.

According to all of the classic evidence in Elethia's Ragefire spawn cycle petition thread (for which ALL of us clerics on the server owe Ele a debt of gratitude), Ragefire should pop 0-72 hours after Naggy dies and then every 23 hours thereafter until the next Naggy spawn. This spawn pattern seemed to receive overwhelming support for being classic.

Kanras replied to the thread saying only that the Ragefire spawn would be fixed, 0-3 days post-Naggy, multiple spawns possible per Naggy, pending update. Although Kanras never explicitly said it, everyone in the thread apparently believed this response to mean the during the next patch (2/20) the spawn cycle would be implemented according to the classic evidence presented by Ele and supported (at least anecdotally) by all the clerics in the thread who played classic. Specifically, everyone assumed 0-72 hours after Naggy dies, Ragefire can spawn and then every 23 hours thereafter until the next Naggy spawn.

Then when Naggy and Ragefire both spawned in one afternoon immediately following the patch (2/20), everyone assumed Ragefire's spawn cycle had been fixed to the classic system and that he would be popping roughly once a day for the next week until Naggy respawned (+/- variance). However, as someone who has been sitting at this camp for 30+ hours since the last Ragefire pop, I can say with certainty that Ragefire is NOT spawning as intended on the 23 hour schedule. Whether Kanras did modify the Ragefire spawn to ALWAYS be 0-72 hours or not is unclear. For all we can tell, Kanras might have forgotten the Ragefire fix altogether on this patch (unlikely, but we won't know for sure unless/until Ragefire takes over 72 hours to spawn).

To reiterate, Ragefire is currently (post-patch) taking much longer to spawn than is classic according to the evidence in Ele's bug petition thread. Perhaps there is a chance for multiple Ragefires to spawn after Naggy is killed, but we are not getting ~1/day after the initial Ragefire variance that we all believed we would. I will try to submit a bug report on this later today (unless I end up asleep at the wheel from this camp).

Now, on to my two concerns regarding the rotation:

1. The window to kill Ragefire should be 30 minutes or one wipe, as originally suggested. The official triggered mob policy is 20 minutes. Any guild that is going to insist on a spot in the rotation should be willing and able to get a raid force together and stomp Ragefire within this time frame, just like the top 3 guilds would do.

2. More importantly, any guild taking its turn in the rotation should do so without the assistance of other guilds. If your guild is unable to kill Ragefire without another guild helping, then you and the other guild should be sharing one rotation slot, not two.

This is much the same reason that TMO has refused to add VD to the Trak rotation, even though VD is obviously capable of killing Trak without IB's assistance. Likewise, TMO is (understandably) unwilling to have VD in VP unless we're (a) able to break in on our own or (b) sharing IB's half of the rotation, which seems unlikely at present.

Originally Posted by Versus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

CT won't be rotated for the same reason Trak won't be rotated with you by choice...IB and VD are one guild. It would be idiotic to give a force that raids together for every single target outside of VP an independent slot in a rotation when we could just compete with you 50/50 like we do now.

I'm not suggesting -- although I think some might -- that either IB or TMO has bad intentions in supporting this 6-guild rotation. But it is very easy for either of these guilds to support an extremely inclusive rotation during the week when only VD can raid and it doesn't affect either IB or TMO. Even if their intentions are entirely pure, it will be very difficult for these two powerhouse guilds to continuously share a 6-guild rotation with guilds that don't have the numbers to kill Ragefire without teaming up together. It would be both very convenient and very predictable for one of these super raid guilds to insist on a revised (and more restrictive) rotation in 2-4 weeks time, or decide to click air after all, despite insisting this week that VD is evil and greedy if we don't like the rotation agreement.

There is one important caveat to this second concern/suggestion: NiNik has received almost universal support from everyone in every guild for deserving her epic. I don't know NiNik personally, but she does seem to be a class act. So if all the guilds perhaps wanted to pitch in and help with NiNik's epic, that seems perfectly acceptable as a one-time exception to the "one-guild-one-slot" rule.

I feel like I'm being a bully toward the smaller/more casual raid guilds. And truthfully, I hate that. Still, the fact is that if your guild can't raid and kill Ragefire by itself in a timely fashion, then you should reconsider insisting on a rotation spot. If you can only kill Ragefire as a cooperative effort with another guild, then you and that other guild should share a rotation slot.

TL;DR VERSION --

1. We all need to work together to get the Ragefire spawn fixed to the more favorable classic spawn cycle. This is something that will tremendously benefit us all.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=564582#post56458

2. The Ragefire rotation should be limited to a 30 minute window (more than the standard triggered mob limit) per kill/wipe. Likewise, rotation guilds should not receive assistance from other rotation guilds (or should be willing to share a rotation slot with the cooperating guild). If a guild does not have the players to handle either of these requirements, perhaps the guild should reconsider insisting on a rotation slot.

[Corrodith]

even though VD is obviously capable of killing Trak without IB's assistance

[Sat Feb 18 19:45:12 2012] There are 50 players in Old Sebilis.

[Sat Feb 18 19:46:43 2012] Ciandra says, 'LEEEROY JENKINS'
[Sat Feb 18 19:46:43 2012] Myuharin regains concentration and continues casting.
[Sat Feb 18 19:46:45 2012] Trakanon beams a smile at Myuharin

[Sat Feb 18 19:47:55 2012] There are 35 players in Old Sebilis.

[Sat Feb 18 19:48:13 2012] There are 30 players in Old Sebilis.

[Sat Feb 18 19:48:27 2012] There are 12 players in Old Sebilis.

Sorry couldn't help myself!

[Serin]

Originally Posted by Tricky Beverage [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. More importantly, any guild taking its turn in the rotation should do so without the assistance of other guilds. If your guild is unable to kill Ragefire without another guild helping, then you and the other guild should be sharing one rotation slot, not two.

This is much the same reason that TMO has refused to add VD to the Trak rotation, even though VD is obviously capable of killing Trak without IB's assistance. Likewise, TMO is (understandably) unwilling to have VD in VP unless we're (a) able to break in on our own or (b) sharing IB's half of the rotation, which seems unlikely at present.

This is honestly the one part of your sentiment that I don't quite understand.

Perhaps a different perspective would help:: Say you're sitting on a desert island and there's a coconut tree that grows one coconut every day. (stay with me) You have 5 other people there with you. You agree to a rotation on who gets the coconuts each day in which order. Person A gets their coconut and can't quite crack it themselves to get the coconut milk/meat. Person A enlists person B to help with the promise that person A would assist person B with his coconut.. How would you, person C, respond to this situation?

Would you A. Rip the coconut out of person A's hands and say "Sorry, you can't open it with no assistance, so if you want person B to help you with yours you both have to share"

or B. Realize that it doesn't really matter how many people it takes to open the coconut, you're still 3rd in the rotation and will get yours eventually..

or C. Assist person A, and B with their coconuts, since you're all stranded in the same predicament, and would rather not have person A or person B rip your coconut out of your hands if you were in the same situation..?


Just an end statement.. Remember that we're all here for the exact same reason.. To experience classic content with classic level gear. We all have the same goal, which is to have Fun. If you start begrudging people their fun just because you feel that they don't deserve <insert random stuff here>.. It makes the game horrible for everyone..

[zahlia]

Originally Posted by maverixdamighty [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is getting off topic anyways. This thread ... has become a list of what guild has screwed over what guild etc.

This, this, and more this. ^


My dearest wish in all my time playing this game has been to help others enjoy it as much as I have. The avatar of NiNiK has helped me do that. No, in real life I am not six years old; I do not subsist on a diet of milk and cookies; I am not bursting with joy 99% of the time. Playing NiNiK has helped me to keep sight of the part of myself that truly loves my "Blue Sparkler" and "Gnome Tinkered Toy" more than any other item I do or could ever possess in the game. (Yes, this includes the epic.)

I don't expect everyone to understand this point of view. When I played on live I was in a hardcore, cutthroat guild. NiNiK was never even my main character; she was an alt I created on a whim who ended up showing me a part of EQ I hadn't seen before. (Some of my own guildmates, who knew me only as Zahlia, whom I didn't roleplay at all, found the NiNiK persona just as baffling as many of the people here seem to do. The numerous jabs on these forums about how "NiNiKish" is impossible to understand, or hurts the reader's brain, or reveals a worrisome dearth of IQ on my part -- none of these are new to me, I assure you [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.].)

I suppose what I am trying to say is that I’ve played this game on a bunch of characters, in several guilds, in two decades (!) and with a changing perspective on what this game and its community is and could be. I adore the people who play on this server. With very few exceptions, the people I’ve met in this community are helpful, funny, interesting and fun. Of course I love the people in Divinity; I am truly lucky to have found a guild of players whose ideas of how the game can best be enjoyed match so closely to my own at this point, but some of my favorite people are also in IB, TMO, and VD, not only in the other small guilds.

TL;DR? I don’t blame you, so let me make this simple: Regardless of how despicably p99ers may behave as guilds (Amelinda’s post this past weekend came as a shock to me, and I’m far more cynical than NiNiK) as individuals I like and respect everyone I've met. Please stop attacking each other. Since that is probably too much to hope for, at least stop tearing into each other in my name. It is the very last thing I want, for myself and for all of you.

[Kassel]

Arsenal, I dont know when you cleared fear last but we killed at least 8 mobs on break in alone so i am sure there was more than 4 up. I am sure the situation must have sucked but it shoud be common policy to scout the fear portal prior to sending in your full crew.