SK Race Choice

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thank you for responding in a conversational manner.

Originally Posted by Croco [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just because you keep saying a thing does not make it true. This is one of the problems with your style of debate. You say these things that are opinion, and you expect all of us to just take them at face value as the word of god and to not even attempt to disagree with you. Yes I know you didn't specifically say that but that is how many of us interpret what and how you say things.

Your opinions are not law. Just because you say something is silly doesn't make it so. People are allowed to compare and debate anything they want. It's not unreasonable to compare Regrowth to Torpor because at a base level they do the exact same thing, regenerate hit points. Your debate and conversation style is the very definition of 'intellectual dishonesty'.

This is projection. Often times other posters (including yourself) do this. You will proclaim what you say is correct, and attack people who disagree with you. The proof is in your signature that you are doing this right now. A sincere person who wants to engage in debate does not stoop to petty nonsense like typing "do not trust X poster" in your signature.

You are conflating what facts and opinions are. If I show the math that Regrowth is only providing a 5% boost to Regeneration when using Torpor, that is a fact. I am not forcing my opinion on you, I am providing you a fact. If I provide video evidence of a fight where extra Regeneration would not have helped win the fight, that is a fact. One that goes beyond theory.

When someone provides a multitude of facts to back up a claim, the proper response is to provide counter evidence if you think my evidence is faulty. Resorting to insults and fallacies is not the solution. When you do this, you simply give the appearance of being unable to admit you may be wrong when confronted with the evidence.

I am not saying you cannot debate things. But it is not good to post objectively incorrect ideas and try to pass them off as objectively correct simply because you like having a debate. If there is a factual answer to the question, it should be provided. Trying to compare Regrowth to Torpor is objectively a bad idea, because they serve two different purposes. Regrowth is there to provide small amounts of HP that add up over time. Torpor is there to heal a large portion of health over a short period of time. People do not compare Complete Heal to Regrowth for the same reason. They have two different purposes, even though functionally they do the same thing; Increase your HP.

Originally Posted by Croco [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You pretty constantly take peoples reasonable interpretations and reading between the lines of what you say and throw it back, "I never said that, you're putting words in my mouth", "Show me where I said that". Then you turn around and do the exact same thing back to us by telling us that we have admitted to this or that when we never did so. You can interpret from our words and actions what you think we have said but you can't then come and say "Thank you for admitting..." when we never admitted anything. That might be what has happened in your mind but that's not what has happened in actual real life. If you go back and read through this thread you're the only one with this style of writing/debating where you state something as fact that someone has not said or admitted to. You can read between the lines and correlate many things that someone has said to come up with your own understanding of what you think they are saying beyond the actual written words but it is beyond dishonest to then state that said person has 'admitted' anything outright and you do this CONSTANTLY.

The problem here is you think people are providing "reasonable interpretations". That is very generous.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Exactly! It’s because of people like DSM who just keep spreading bad advice. He will sit here and say 20 int iis useful but regen isn’t, lol.

There is no way you can interpret my posts to think I said something like this. It is a blatant strawman and a lie. There are many more examples of posters doing this sort of nonsense. This is an example of people putting words in my mouth.

I am not saying I am perfect, and always get things correct. If I have put words in your mouth, you can clarify your statement and I will apologize. I will extend that courtesy to you, even though you seem unwilling to do the same.

People do admit to things by saying them plainly:

Originally Posted by Gloomlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is irrelevant my posts here are not about the topic at hand. I came to criticise your lack of integrity. Does this matter?

That is a plain text admission of insulting and trolling someone. It is the definition in fact. Remember that I cannot see your face or hear your tone of voice. If this was supposed to be a joke or something else, there is no way to know with the little text given. Do not blame me for terse responses that have little context.

The difference between myself and the troll posters is I actually provide evidence to back up my claims, instead of insults and fallacies. Please do not assume everybody's opinions are equal when one person has evidence and the other does not. Evidence does not automatically equate to being correct, but it makes for a much stronger case than simply calling another person stupid.

[Tann]

y'all never going to convince the other that their wrong, doesn't matter what proof or math you provide... This hasn't been about SK's for 10 pages.

Narcissism is a helluva drug

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Tann [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

y'all never going to convince the other that their wrong, doesn't matter what proof or math you provide.

Narcissism is a helluva drug

It is unfortunate that people cannot admit they are wrong, even when confronted with evidence.

I am not sure why learning more about P99 is a bad thing for some people.

Originally Posted by Duik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Funny how its an SK racial selection thread amd of the races in question is troll.

I see what you did there.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Croco [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Except the difference between when you do it and when others, many times in this very thread, have done it is that our 'advice' is almost always given with a grain of salt and the understanding that we don't purport our claims as 'the word of god' not to be debated and that no amount of counter claims or counter evidence will convince us otherwise. The people who have reasonably engaged with you and tried to debate their points of view leave room for personal choice and don't seem to be interested with solving string theory and nailing down limited use cases and niche's that aren't indicative of the totality of experiences across the player base. This is not how you operate. You very often, almost exclusively, seem to be solely focused on proving yourself right in small sample sizes based on a seemingly random, or sometimes very niche, set of parameters and when someone can't convince you that maybe in other examples or when you take into account many different use cases your hypothesis isn't the only way to get from point a to point z you dismiss them. Two things can be true at the same time. There are often many ways to get to your desired destination depending on which road you think will be easier to get there, and just because something is true doesn't mean it's correct for everyone.

Video games are based on rules and math. You can objectively prove something to be true. You are essentially hiding behind the idea that because multiple possibilities exist, these extra possibilities must matter.

I have no problem with someone saying "I think X is true, but I cannot prove it". I do not argue with people who do that. It becomes a problem when you try to promote your "grain of salt" opinion as a fact, simply because you say so. The troll posters do this often. This is an issue because you are providing a false sense of confidence in bad/unproven ideas.

I am not saying my evidence is ironclad and perfect. But right now it is much better than the "grain of salt" opinions people seem so eager to push to the point of trolling others.

Originally Posted by Croco [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As I said above 2 things can be true at the same time. You have provided statistics to back up the claim that adding regrowth to the mix 'would not have helped win the fight'. However I don't believe anyone made that claim (I'm beyond done with this conversation so I'm not going to go back and double check this). 'Would not have helped win the fight', and 'make the fight easier' can both be true. It's a matter of perspective and comfort. If having extra regen makes someone more comfortable during the fight so as that the extra breathing room, even if only perceived, makes them less likely to panic in situations where the fight might have gone sideways then yes that regrowth helped win the fight. Even if the statistics don't back that up. The sheer placebo effect of knowing you had the buff and it was providing passive regen could 100% help "win the fight".

Multiple posters are claiming Regrowth would have helped in the fight. Multiple claims have been made about improved actions per minute, more spells cast during the same period, shorter fight times, etc. All of these things are factual claims, which can be proven with factual evidence. Thus far, nobody has provided concrete evidence to support their theories. They cannot even use an existing video and do basic math calculations to see if they are correct.

Everybody agrees that something can "help". Getting 0.01 DPS is "killing something faster". However, that doesn't mean it will actually be helpful enough to provide a tangible benefit, such as saving enough time on the fight to get more kills per hour. It is not helpful to provide general statements like "Regrowth will help a Torpor Shaman kill something faster", because the implication there is it will be noticeable. This is misinformation if the facts end up showing otherwise, as they currently seem to.

People are not incorrect when they say "Regrowth may give you a small chance to survive in a fight". That is perfectly reasonable to say. Just do not inflate your opinion to make it seem more than it actually is, unless you can prove it.

Originally Posted by Croco [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is where your fundamental flaw comes in. It is incredibly difficult to present objective truth. You cannot prove that having Regrowth would not 'help win the fight' that you posted a video of just because it didn't help you. As I argued above the comfort and ease on your mind that comes with having a buff that is always helping you can keep you from going into panic mode and making a mistake that will cost you a death. You simply cannot disprove that because it's subjective to each person. So if the type of person who feels regrowth helps them has that buff up just the fact that the buff is in their window can be a measurable help if they don't panic and die. Just because this isn't how your brain works doesn't mean everyone's brain works just like yours. Again I feel like I have to reiterate I know you didn't say everyones brain works like yours I'm making an inference based on the way you speak and debate and how you present evidence. It's not your place to say that comparing Regrowth and Torp is silly or a bad idea. That is just your opinion, which you are free to have, but other people can have a different opinion and are free to debate and compare regrowth to torp to their hearts content. If someone wanted to compare CH to Regrowth I wouldn't stop them. It's their right to make those comparisons and have those debates. You are not the arbitor of what is and isn't correct to compare and debate. *Again* I know you never said you were but again I'm making an inference based on what you've said and how you've said it. (Are you starting to see why people get so frustrated trying to talk to you? I've already had to qualify 3 times that something I'm saying I know you didn't say word for word and I'm sure there will be more times I feel I have to add that qualifier.)

This is the flaw in your reasoning, as I stated above. You have the false assumption that objective truth is simply too difficult to provide. This type of thinking will make you dismiss evidence out of hand, which you and others have done in the past. P99 is really not as difficult of a game to figure out as you think.

It is not your place to troll other people just because they disagree with you, and bloat threads to oblivion.

I am no arbiter of debate. If I show somebody that 2+2=4, that is a fact. It is not me forcing my opinion on you, or shutting down a debate. If you really want to debate something like 2+2=4, you better provide more than opinions to claim 2+2=5.

Originally Posted by Croco [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is pure comedy. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Either other people can do the same thing you do and infer meaning based on a totality of statements or you shouldn't be doing it. In either case it's at the very least not factually accurate to say someone 'admitted' to something they didn't explicitely admit to. That is intelectual dishonesty.

I am not having my cake and eating it too. I do not create strawmen to try and discredit other posters. If I misread something you said, simply clarify it and I will admit I am wrong. You do not provide me this same courtesy, so I am not sure why you think I am the bad guy here. Remember that you attacked me first?

However, when you plainly state the definition of trolling, that is a clear admission. I am not sure how you can accidentally say that. If you can provide a really good reason as to why you typed out the definition of trolling as your reason for posting, we can discuss it. Otherwise you just look like you are trying to backtrack.

Originally Posted by Croco [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You provide evidence but you disregard other people's evidence when it doesn't line up with your perception of what is important in any given situation. There are many ways to get from A to Z. The vast majority of the time, at least at the outset when they aren't yet frustrated by talking to you, people present their counter view/claim with caveats. It happens often that you disregard those caveats or the fact that someone might think differently or see the problem from a different perspective or that some claims can't be presented with numbers and facts and just because of that doesn't make them invalid claims.

I would be willing to bet a large amount of platinum that the perception of almost everyone you deem to be just an 'insulting troll' is that your mindset is too rigid and doesn't allow for any other path to get to the desired outcome except A-B-C-D-E-F.... etc. Everquest is not solvable. No more than a game like Magic the Gathering is solvable. The mind, skills, goals, dreams, and desires will alter what is the correct path to take for everyone to get to Z. You debate and speak like there is no wiggle room and every debate and argument you enter is a zero sum game and that's just not true. One size does not fit all.

People do not provide evidence. They provide opinions they claim as evidence, and then get mad when I point out it is an opinion. Did anybody else provide videos, logs, etc., to back up their claims? I didn't see it. If so, please show me. Again, you have a misunderstanding of P99's complexity, and use it as an excuse to dismiss evidence.

You seem to think posting some text with an opinion is equally valid evidence to a video showing an actual fight in P99.

I would be willing to bet a large amount of platinum that most people perceive you as a troll, because you actually troll lol. You purposely come into a thread and attack posters for no reason other than you don't like them. I am willing to engage in debate, and provide evidence. I only defend myself when you attack me. I do not come into other threads and start attacking people. It is honestly amazing that you cannot do any self reflection.

[Ripqozko]

DSM is the future of kittens, good luck to them

[Duik]

Funny how its an SK racial selection thread amd of the races in question is troll.

[Duik]

Boing.

[Xenmir]

If you are about to solo Ionat as a shaman and there's an enchanter there who is willing to buff you with Clarity 2 for no charge, would you accept the buff?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Xenmir [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you are about to solo Ionat as a shaman and there's an enchanter there who is willing to buff you with Clarity 2 for no charge, would you accept the buff?

If they allowed me to click off a buff first, sure. When running around WW I am at buff cap basically. I run all 5 resist buffs because there is at least one dragon who can do each damage type. Cargalia is a Shaman, and she can cast both Bane and Pox. I have FoS + STA + AGI + AC to maximize mitigation. Ring 10, SoW, Levitate, and Invis bring my buff count to 13. I need to save 1 slot for Torpor, and 1 slot for an enemy debuff. I would click off the AGI to get the C2.

C2 is better than Worn/Spell HP Regen for a Torpor Shaman, because you do not need to cannibalize it into mana. When fighting a damage spikey mob like Ionat, you cannot always cannibalize, even when you have no spells you need to cast in the moment.

You need to stay above a certain amount of HP/MP to avoid getting killed by an unlucky set of max hits, which can happen. Regrowth + Fungi Tunic is regenerating too slowly to mitigate this type of damage when damage spikes occur within 30 seconds or so.

In the long term Regrowth + Fungi Tunic generally doesn't help because +30 HP/Tick over 21 minutes translates to 6300 HP, which is 4-5 Torpors, depending on server tick. If the difference between life and death was 4-5 Torpors on a fight like Ionat, the problem was your strategy during specific periods of the fight, not a lack of mana.

The C2 would be more likely to convert into a faster kill speed, because it would give you enough mana for a few extra Bane of Nife's. You are casting Bane of Nife a lot less than Cannibalize, so you have a greater chance of fitting it in somewhere safe.

Would I advise Shamans to try and get C2 every time they kill WW Dragons? No. The Dragons dispel, so you have a decent chance of it being removed. Unless you have a duo partner or you are boxing, you will probably end up spending more time trying to get C2 than the time you save by having it.

Originally Posted by Croco [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Apparently I'm not done. Because this is a perfect example of why people get so incredibly frustrated talking to you and why it's readily apparent for everyone to see that you seem to relish and crave the last word on any topic. All you had to do was quote me and say "Agree to disagree" and be done with it. There was no need to reiterate the point that you've already explained previously and in other threads. You gain nothing from explaining what I already know besides looking like a know it all that has to have the last word. It was clear that I didn't agree with you and your evaluation about the complexity of Ever Quest. There was no reason to restate your opinion other than to have the last word. There is no harm or no shame with saying that we agree to disagree. But to say you disagree then decide to restate your opinion as if it's somehow the more correct opinion is a big reason people are frustrated with you. Learn to type "agree to disagree" and not feel the need to qualify that.

I restated my position because I am hoping you would reconsider your position on the matter. Is there any evidence you would accept that would change your mind?

You could also stop posting if you think the conversation is at it's conclusion. You accuse me of trying to get the last word, but you are clearly trying to get the last word too. I am not sure why it is OK for you to get the last word, but it is some sort of horrible ordeal for everybody else when I post again. If it is a really bad look to get the last word, why are you doing it?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Croco [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I suggest you learn to read the room, so to speak.

I can read the room just fine:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh Jesus, I step away for 48 hours and this thread blows up another 20 pages?

I'm up to page 22 but to summarize my reading thus far: DSM thinks he is right again and everyone else is wrong. Again.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Unfortunately this is what happens when death gets involved in a thread. Says things like “regen is useless with torpor” just because he can kill a WW dragon without it. He’s a hypocrite, stealth editor, word manipulator, and ultimately just a troll who thinks he’s clever.

We have to defend the truth against people like this.

Originally Posted by Duik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

STEEEEEEEEEEL GOOOOOIIINGGG#!#!
OMFGROFLLOLOCAUSTICSODA.

Originally Posted by Gloomlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"Trolling" and insulting you.

The only thing I'm "reaping" now is a pathetic child like you.

Originally Posted by Croco [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please be warned when trying to take advice from DSM.

Looks like a bunch of trolls ganging up on someone they disagree with. This includes your own trolling.

You are basically asking me to let the trolls run free, insult people, and provide bad information without resistance.

I am sorry, but I will not let trolls ruin these forums simply because you want to give them a pass. You should be handing out advise to them long before you get to me.

If you are unopen to the possibility that P99 may not be as complex as you think, you are simply being close minded.

We can leave this at an impasse if you wish, but you are going to run into problems with understanding the game.