SK Race Choice

[Gloomlord]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not lying. You are assuming I am lying because you want to attack me. You admitted to posting here with the sole intention of trolling and insulting me.

I am happy to admit I am wrong, because that means another poster provided better evidence we can all benefit from. I do not lose anything by being wrong, I gain a better understanding of the game. So does everyone else.

We gain nothing when you keep acting delusional, however. You aren't helping your side either. If I am wrong, nobody knows it because all they see is you trolling me non-stop, without even attempting to show why I may be wrong. You skipped the entire debate and went straight to the trolling and insults.

I thought you "wanted to help me"? How does calling me "delusional" help with that?

That's just you being incendiary, thus proving your hypocrisy.

If you can't see how claiming being happy to swallowing your pride doesn't make you look disingenuous, then you are bereft of any sort of intelligence to see how disingenuous and self-righteous this makes you appear.

You might also like to notice I never "admitted" to trolling. You may claim that I am, but I did not admit to it. That is you being a liar, once again.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Gloomlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You might also like to notice I never "admitted" to trolling. You may claim that I am, but I did not admit to it. That is you being a liar, once again.

You admitted it here:

Originally Posted by Gloomlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is irrelevant my posts here are not about the topic at hand. I came to criticise your lack of integrity. Does this matter?

https://www.endsleigh.co.uk/blog/pos...rnet-trolling/

The insult troll, who posts pure hateful comments just for the sake of it. They don’t need to know the person or have a reason for posting spiteful comments

Pretty much the definition of a troll lol. Your posts have nothing to do with the topic at hand, and are just there to be hateful.

[Troxx]

Oh Jesus, I step away for 48 hours and this thread blows up another 20 pages?

I'm up to page 22 but to summarize my reading thus far: DSM thinks he is right again and everyone else is wrong. Again.

Regrowth give more hp return for mana than Torpor. It also doesn't snare you. Both spells are excellent and the presence of either doesn't negate the benefit of the other. I try to keep my regrowth up at all times.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Regrowth give more hp return for mana than Torpor. It also doesn't snare you. Both spells are excellent and the presence of either doesn't negate the benefit of the other. I try to keep my regrowth up at all times.

It doesn't matter that the HP to Mana ratio on Regrowth is better than Torpor. You are regenerating much slower when compared to Torpor. You cannot compare Torpor and Regrowth. Torpor is an actual healing spell that provides significant mitigation over a short period. Regrowth is a small boost to HP regeneration that gives you the full benefit over a long period.

If a mob deals 1000 damage in 30 seconds, Regrowth would have only saved 75 HP out of that 1000. You are going to need a lot more mitigation. Torpor would mitigate the full 1000, and heal you for an extra 200-500.

You can use Regrowth if you want of course, but you should swap it for a more important buff if you are running into the spell slot limit. Torpor is overshadowing Regrowth by a large margin. Regrowth is only improving your regeneration by 5% when using Torpor.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It doesn't matter that the HP to Mana ratio on Regrowth is better than Torpor. You are regenerating much slower when compared to Torpor. You cannot compare Torpor and Regrowth. Torpor is an actual healing spell that provides significant mitigation over a short period. Regrowth is a small boost to HP regeneration that gives you the full benefit over a long period.

If a mob deals 1000 damage in 30 seconds, Regrowth would have only saved 75 HP out of that 1000. You are going to need a lot more mitigation. Torpor would mitigate the full 1000, and heal you for an extra 200-500.

You can use Regrowth if you want of course, but you should swap it for a more important buff if you are running into the spell slot limit. Torpor is overshadowing Regrowth by a large margin. Regrowth is only improving your regeneration by 5% when using Torpor.

This is a limited way to analyze the effects of regen imo.

The benefit is more in the long term. A troll with fungi and regrowth will regen 42 hp/tick at level 60. That’s 14% of what torpor does, that is working for you at all times below 100%. If you find yourself in a sustained grinding session, this will add up to quite a lot over time. There’s a chance it could save your life if you get into some dicey scenarios. There’s a chance it couldn’t save your life. I really can’t prove this.

What it will do is lower your required apm over an extended period of time. Depending on how active you are, you might never need to torpor yourself, or less often, and subsequently not having to canni more on torpor mana spent. That amount of regen is essentially a free torpor every 3-3.5 minutes. I was in the hole for about 6 hours the other day helping a buddy with an epic. I was glad to have the regen, that’s a lot of free torpor’s. Maybe my APM bucket is lower than others, but people eventually do get fatigued and decide to stop playing. It’s no different than bards who decide to use stopsong. Theres a potential value add when you’re doing less keystrokes, even though you don’t need stopsong to play a bard.

With a class that demands such a high level of APM to maintain mana levels, I find this to be a significant value add. Whether or not people agree on this is irrelevant. It is a measurable benefit, regardless of how much value you assign to it, and people can decide whether or not they choose to ignore this.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is a limited way to analyze the effects of regen imo.

The benefit is more in the long term. A troll with fungi and regrowth will regen 42 hp/tick at level 60. That’s 14% of what torpor does, that is working for you at all times below 100%. If you find yourself in a sustained grinding session, this will add up to quite a lot over time. There’s a chance it could save your life if you get into some dicey scenarios. There’s a chance it couldn’t save your life. I really can’t prove this.

What it will do is lower your required apm over an extended period of time. Depending on how active you are, you might never need to torpor yourself, or less often, and subsequently not having to canni more on torpor mana spent. That amount of regen is essentially a free torpor every 3-3.5 minutes. I was in the hole for about 6 hours the other day helping a buddy with an epic. I was glad to have the regen, that’s a lot of free torpor’s. Maybe my APM bucket is lower than others, but people eventually do get fatigued and decide to stop playing. It’s no different than bards who decide to use stopsong. Theres a potential value add when you’re doing less keystrokes, even though you don’t need stopsong to play a bard.

With a class that demands such a high level of APM to maintain mana levels, I find this to be a significant value add. Whether or not people agree on this is irrelevant. It is a measurable benefit, regardless of how much value you assign to it, and people can decide whether or not they choose to ignore this.

Thank you for posting in a cordial manner. Please do not read this in a sarcastic way. I am being genuine.

I understand the logic, and it makes sense. I was not trying to say that your theory is off base to the point it is not worth discussing. When I am getting attacked by multiple posters simultaneously, forgive me if I lose a little bit of patience at times.

The reason why I am skeptical about the APM argument is because when you are fighting mobs with Torpor, you are not always able to cannibalize. This is because mobs like WW Dragons can produce damage spikes via multiple high rolled double attacks.

To stay alive in a fight like Ionat, you need to know when to cannibalize, and when to let Torpor recover your HP. You also need to fit in the other spells you need to cast into your rotation.

I have fought 4+ and 6+ Dragons with and without Regrowth. I know I had Regrowth on in the video I provided, but you will just have to take my word that I don't always use it. I have killed a lot more WW Dragons unrecorded than recorded.

I haven't noticed a difference in my APM with and without Regrowth when fighting mobs with Torpor. I have been playing a Shaman for years too. This is why I caution against claiming that you will get a noticeable APM benefit. I am not saying you are getting nothing, but if it ends up being 1 APM, most people are probably not going to rush out and buy a Fungi to get that. Based on my observation that most Torpor Shamans are not wearing Fungi on a regular basis, I am confident that other people understand this, even if it is at a subconscious level. Torpor Shamans wouldn't get Vindi BPs to replace Fungis.

That is why we need to clarify at least a rough estimate of how much APM you will get back, so people can make the decision themselves, instead of making a guess as to what you meant by "It improves APM". I posted the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPxeOVuX0G8 Ionat video because you can actually go through it and check to see if there was a certain point in the fight where extra regen from a Fungi would have allowed me to cannibalize, or do something else. You can get a rough APM improvement number from that, and we can discuss it.

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...

Tl;Dr:
-Some stuff is easily measurable, some stuff is almost impossible without an arduous setup
-People can make personal opinions valuing one benefit over another, they can still succeed at the game
- People who are never wrong are exhausting and likely are more than they know (or admit)

The problem with this line of thinking is you are clearly biased against me. It is probably due to people repeating strawmen and lies, which influences how you read my posts. The fact that you think I am "never wrong" simply proves you don't read what I post, and you are making assumptions about me. I have admitted to being wrong plenty of times on these forums, and you can look back into the post history to check.

If you were actually concerned about giving posters advise, you would be talking to the people who clearly troll others in an attempt to shut down the conversation. That is a much stronger indication of arrogance and pride. The fact that I am willing to go out and provide evidence for my claims shows that I am not arrogant enough to assume I am correct, simply because I say so. I back up what I say.

It is quite telling that people only have advise for me, and none of the other posters who are clearly acting worse. If you were being consistent, you wouldn't stop at giving me advise. You would tell Troxx to stop bloating threads with silly gifs when he is being arrogant and assuming he cannot be wrong. You would tell Gloomlord that posting hundreds of off-topic posts simply to "criticize" someone is not productive, and simply bloats the thread.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I know I had Regrowth on in the video I provided, but you will just have to take my word that I don't always use it. I have killed a lot more WW Dragons unrecorded than recorded.

But what about factual evidence, incontrovertible proof, logs, parses and videos?

You always demand evidence from others.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thank you for posting in a cordial manner. Please do not read this in a sarcastic way. I am being genuine.

I understand the logic, and it makes sense. I was not trying to say that your theory is off base to the point it is not worth discussing. When I am getting attacked by multiple posters simultaneously, forgive me if I lose a little bit of patience at times.

The reason why I am skeptical about the APM argument is because when you are fighting mobs with Torpor, you are not always able to cannibalize. This is because mobs like WW Dragons can produce damage spikes via multiple high rolled double attacks.

To stay alive in a fight like Ionat, you need to know when to cannibalize, and when to let Torpor recover your HP. You also need to fit in the other spells you need to cast into your rotation.

I have fought 4+ and 6+ Dragons with and without Regrowth. I know I had Regrowth on in the video I provided, but you will just have to take my word that I don't always use it. I have killed a lot more WW Dragons unrecorded than recorded.

I haven't noticed a difference in my APM with and without Regrowth when fighting mobs with Torpor. I have been playing a Shaman for years too. This is why I caution against claiming that you will get a noticeable APM benefit. I am not saying you are getting nothing, but if it ends up being 1 APM, most people are probably not going to rush out and buy a Fungi to get that. Based on my observation that most Torpor Shamans are not wearing Fungi on a regular basis, I am confident that other people understand this, even if it is at a subconscious level. Torpor Shamans wouldn't get Vindi BPs to replace Fungis.

That is why we need to clarify at least a rough estimate of how much APM you will get back, so people can make the decision themselves, instead of making a guess as to what you meant by "It improves APM". I posted the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPxeOVuX0G8 Ionat video because you can actually go through it and check to see if there was a certain point in the fight where extra regen from a Fungi would have allowed me to cannibalize, or do something else. You can get a rough APM improvement number from that, and we can discuss it.

The fact that mobs like WW Dragons can produce damage spikes via multiple high rolled double attacks seems to further support the case for regen. 42/tick makes torpor do 342/tick. This just made it 14% better and there is a chance it could save your life depending on the damage spike. Again though, I can't prove this, so I won't try it argue it will save your life. But it always working for you while Torpor isn't always, or when you have to cast canni and can't torpor, it is still working for you. Torpor could also get dispelled, while racial regen + fungi cannot, and regrowth can be instantly refreshed with the fungi staff.

As far as the APM advantage by stacking regen, it is hard to calculate this exactly, but I can throw out some numbers.

Say you're in a sustained dungeon crawl group and have slowed 4 mobs. This costs you 1000 mana(250 turgur * 4). For the sake of this discussion let's say Torpor heals 1350 health, because we don't know on average how often you will get the 5th tick. In order to recover 1000 mana, you would need to cast canni 4 12.20 times(1000 / 82 = 12.20). This equates to 1,806 damage taken. Torpor heals for 1350 on average, but it does have an opportunity cost. You need to canni 3 times to make up the mana cost of Torpor. In the process you would take 444 damage also. So in the end, Torpor on average nets you about 906 hp when you factor in it's opportunity cost(cost of mana & canni damage(1350 - 444) = 906. In order to make up the 1,806 health cost from the 12.20 canni's initially, you would need to cast Torpor twice and canni 6 times, to get roughly 1812 hp back. So that's 8 actions. This would also take about 35 seconds(30 seconds + 5 second buffer assuming you have a few fizzles and that you aren't hitting your global reset timers perfectly). Let's assume in an extended session you are dropping a slow around once a minute. so that is 8 actions to make up for 4 slows once a minute resulting in a total of 2 APM saved. That value add of that APM savings can vary based on how many actions you are doing per minute, so I'm not going to come to a conclusion about how much % you would save in APM. It could be a 20% savings, 10%, 5%, etc. You also get back roughly 8.75 seconds/minute to do other things with those 8 actions, and 42/tick in regen can nearly offset the 1 slow per minute for free.

So in conclusion I am hypothesizing that 42/tick in regen(racial + fungi + regrowth) at 60 can save around 2 APM, while also freeing up about 8.75 seconds/minute to do other things with that time(or nothing if you wish). I am not going to sit here and say these numbers are 100% accurate, but I think it gives a rough estimate of the potential APM savings of adding in as much regen as you can. It also makes Torpor 14% stronger which can potentially help with damage spikes to save your life.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem with this line of thinking is you are clearly biased against me. It is probably due to people repeating strawmen and lies, which influences how you read my posts. The fact that you think I am "never wrong" simply proves you don't read what I post, and you are making assumptions about me. I have admitted to being wrong plenty of times on these forums, and you can look back into the post history to check.

If you were actually concerned about giving posters advise, you would be talking to the people who clearly troll others in an attempt to shut down the conversation. That is a much stronger indication of arrogance and pride. The fact that I am willing to go out and provide evidence for my claims shows that I am not arrogant enough to assume I am correct, simply because I say so. I back up what I say.

It is quite telling that people only have advise for me, and none of the other posters who are clearly acting worse. If you were being consistent, you wouldn't stop at giving me advise. You would tell Troxx to stop bloating threads with silly gifs when he is being arrogant and assuming he cannot be wrong. You would tell Gloomlord that posting hundreds of off-topic posts simply to "criticize" someone is not productive, and simply bloats the thread.

I'm not scrubbing your 4500+ posts for historical tidbits. I cant recall you posting once with any humility, running one stupid test without an ounce of "I could be wrong here but..." baked in. Nobody here has poisoned my views against you, an ounce of levity in a DSM post would be refreshing though. Hell, it's a video game. You arent trying to convince people against eating Tide pods.

I don't care if people troll. You can either try to shut them down or just offer a counter-point. If people cant tell the difference between a reasoned effort to help and trolling this millennium won't be nice to them. Assuming they dont try to lick a wall outlet before that.

Seriously though, if my posts, tests, and general logic drive the community at large insane they will tell me. I'd probably adjust my approach a bit if that was the case or at least tease back with a bit of humor. I do believe what I post but understand if people don't agree. They didnt sign up for a class and I'm not getting paid to teach.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

By no means am I a professional statistician, but I have worked with plenty. High quality statistical testing requires, at a minimum:

An explicit mental model of the world, with all assumptions stated clearly. You need to be able to articulate your understanding of the world before you can know whether your results indicate an improvement of that understanding.

An explicit hypothesis. You need to know what you are looking for in your experiment. Ad-hoc exploratory data gathering can be useful in trying to formulate a hypthothesis, but that exploratory data will not be useful in determining whether a hypothesis is confirmed or rejected.

An experiment design. You need to know ahead of time what data you wish to gather, how to gather it, and when to stop the experiment. An example of a flawed experiment would be trying to show that a certain gear combo causes a certain DPS increase, and then stopping your parse as soon as you show that DPS increase.

Sanity-checking the resulting data to confirm your assumptions have been met. If not, then your understanding of the world is flawed and your data unusable. You need to first run a different experiment to find and fix the flaws in your assumptions.

Run a well-defined, repeatable analysis. You need to know ahead of time what metrics you wish to calculate. You should also do some sort of calculation of statistical confidence, whether frequentist or Bayesian.

Scientific integrity. You need to publish your results whether or not they support your hypothesis. If the results violate some of your assumptions, you cannot rely on the results of any data analysis.

Thank you for this. I never thought something so interesting would be found on page 42 of a SK stat thread [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]




In summary, though, pick the race you want. Level the race you want. Pick the stats you want and be ok with probably regretting something about your class/race/stats at one point. Get good at your class and weed through the BS. Don't afk for DKP's and play the hell out of the game so it inspires people to want to roll the same class. Download Gameparse and check it occasionally to draw some conclusions so you can cut through bias and feelings. Oh and always bring plat to tip for ports...port beggers are losers.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Croco [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If all your facts and advice and evidence were so good as you often think they are you wouldn't feel the need to constantly post and repost and reiterate them ad nauseam.

If you want to cure a disease you don't treat the symptoms. You treat the underlying cause. The trolls are here because of you. They troll and insult because of you. Look inward. Be the change you wish to see in the world.

That is not how this works. Fight the trolls, not the people trying to provide accurate information to questions asked.

You are blaming the people who get trolled and using that as justification for trolling lol.

That is just sad.