Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[Rooj]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not a coding expert, but I assume most if not all of what is on P99 is based on some sort of source coding. So, if you think Charm is overpowered compared to what it was on live at launch, then it's probably based on EQ code from a time when Charm was that powerful. If that code is from later in the timeline, then presumably there would be some sort of patch note or evidence at some point saying that they had upgraded the effectiveness of Charm.

If evidence of the claims can't be presented, then it has to be presumed that the current coding is accurate for the classic era. For every person who says that they're 100% sure that something worked X way, there's another person who says they're 100% sure it worked Y way. Personal memories or anecdotes are insufficient to change something. That's just the way it is.

Erm, how would the staff have access to the source code? The entire point of creating an emulator is that you DON'T have access to the source code so you must write it all yourself. There's no way to get the source code without being given it or stealing it. I'm pretty sure neither of those have ever happened.

While formulas are normally a part of said code, things like mob's stats and resists are kept in a database, which I doubt the staff has access to either. Developers generally want the server to send the client as little data as possible (since it makes it easier to manipulate/hack), although since EQ is an old game, there's no telling what was obtainable from the packets being sent.

Also any developer (I'm sure even the staff here will attest to this) will tell you that NOT everything is listed in the patch notes. There's too many things to keep up with and frankly patch notes are a courtesy, not a requirement.

Anyway, the charm code that the staff is using isn't BASED on anything. It's written from scratch, that's what an emulator is. It isn't impossible to get more concrete data but I can almost guarantee you the staff 100% winged it when it came to charm effectiveness.

You guys should start parsing when in parties and show some parses of charmed mobs against your group or raid, and then afterwards remember what a large amount of damage comes from Haste and Clarity on top of that. I've already done this in the past so I already know what to expect. Be sure to include your party level and camp.

One final note, from https://web.archive.org/web/19991127...tersrealm.com/
"Small question and answer from a chat I had with GZ yesterday:

Q: Does a spell's level have any affect on resists. Ie: A level 50 casting the level 4 mesmerise v. the level 49 dazzle. Generally speaking do higher spells have less chance of being resisted or more? What pattern, if any, is there in relation to this.

A: Some spells have a built in harder resist - for example, a higher level of fear spell is harder to save against than a lower level of fear spell (meaning that the higher level version is more likely to work). Some do other things - for example, the different types of roots all save the same (ie: have the same chance to be resisted), but have different effects as to duration, or chance of breaking once they have succeeded."

Whether or not this is implemented on P99, I have no idea, but it's possible that lower level charm spells are just not scaled properly. And Charm might not be the only spell-line culprit.

[Tecmos Deception]

Oh man, I remember seeing it ages ago and having referenced it a lot since, but I never had the post specifically to wave at people. Yay!

[Buellen]

@Rooj

Well said sir Well said. <salute>

[Rooj]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And making such a massive change for a "classic experience" simply because people didn't know the strategies back then would kind of be a dumb decision; not only because it's simply a dumb rationale, but also because it would then open up a HUGE can of worms to say we need to start nerfing all kinds of other things because people have perfected knowledge and strategy and therefore it's not reflective of classic. And then, at that point, after all those changes it no longer becomes classic Everquest.

But that's just it, lol.

No one here seems to remember Enchanter armies taking literal control of the world because it didn't happen. Therefore it is not a classic experience. All of these excuses like "people didn't know better" are horse shit. If anyone can confirm this is the actual original manual (it looks familiar, but surprised to see Iksar/Cabilis/Thurgadin stuff in there I guess), it states in the ORIGINAL GAME MANUAL that Enchanters use Charisma (https://naroggsplace.files.wordpress.../eq_manual.pdf). Then in November of 1999 there was an Enchanter guide on Castersrealm that talked about putting all of your points into Charisma at character creation, and that's just the earliest reference I found while BARELY looking - doesn't mean there weren't others even earlier. So it was known on DAY ONE that CHA affected Enchanter. I'm sure it didn't take players long to start thinking hey, these lines of spells that reduce magic resistance might help with charm too! Having someone Snare a mob when charm breaks isn't a new concept either. Combining all of this with the fact that CHA is one of the easiest and cheapest stats to raise, along with ENC's having their own CHA buff line, I really don't see how people can continue to make up excuses and not see that SOMETHING, SOMEWHERE, needs an edit.

And it's not "simple." Again, people need to see the parses. The amount of damage a charmed pet does is not simple.

[Rooj]

Originally Posted by Rooj [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You guys should start parsing when in parties and show some parses of charmed mobs against your group or raid, and then afterwards remember what a large amount of damage comes from Haste and Clarity on top of that. I've already done this in the past so I already know what to expect. Be sure to include your party level and camp.

Quoting myself to add: also be sure to include the mob that was charmed, the items you gave it if any, any buffs it was receiving, and how efficient your positioning was if it could backstab. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Rooj [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But that's just it, lol.

No one here seems to remember Enchanter armies taking literal control of the world because it didn't happen. Therefore it is not a classic experience. All of these excuses like "people didn't know better" are horse shit. If anyone can confirm this is the actual original manual (it looks familiar, but surprised to see Iksar/Cabilis/Thurgadin stuff in there I guess), it states in the ORIGINAL GAME MANUAL that Enchanters use Charisma (https://naroggsplace.files.wordpress.../eq_manual.pdf). Then in November of 1999 there was an Enchanter guide on Castersrealm that talked about putting all of your points into Charisma at character creation, and that's just the earliest reference I found while BARELY looking - doesn't mean there weren't others even earlier. So it was known on DAY ONE that CHA affected Enchanter. I'm sure it didn't take players long to start thinking hey, these lines of spells that reduce magic resistance might help with charm too! Having someone Snare a mob when charm breaks isn't a new concept either. Combining all of this with the fact that CHA is one of the easiest and cheapest stats to raise, along with ENC's having their own CHA buff line, I really don't see how people can continue to make up excuses and not see that SOMETHING, SOMEWHERE, needs an edit.

And it's not "simple." Again, people need to see the parses. The amount of damage a charmed pet does is not simple.

Erm I think you missed my point. I never said people didn’t know charisma was important for an enchanter. I said people hadn’t perfected the absolute min/max strategy for how to charm the best. They just didn’t have the whole step by step charm strategy perfected in the way we do today, thereby making charm much more dangerous. You would think they would, but it simply wasn’t common knowledge back in the day. By Kunark I remember people had really figured out some solid strategies, but it took a couple months at least.

As for your other comment, there are old guides that say to use the lowest level charm available. So with respect to charm it seems that it didn’t operate in the same way in terms of chance of effectiveness as say a Fear spell did based on spell level.

[Bazia]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Erm I think you missed my point. I never said people didn’t know charisma was important for an enchanter. I said people hadn’t perfected the absolute min/max strategy for how to charm the best. They just didn’t have the whole step by step charm strategy perfected in the way we do today, thereby making charm much more dangerous. You would think they would, but it simply wasn’t common knowledge back in the day. By Kunark I remember people had really figured out some solid strategies, but it took a couple months at least.

As for your other comment, there are old guides that say to use the lowest level charm available. So with respect to charm it seems that it didn’t operate in the same way in terms of chance of effectiveness as say a Fear spell did based on spell level.

"step by step process" you make it seem complicated

you mean mez the mob tash it then charm it

yeah we really "perfected" the use of 3 spells

[Khorza]

Originally Posted by kul69 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Half of P99 code base is from random old sites like that.

And there it is, the admission on an old classic site that Charm isn't worth it even in groups most of the time.

I've had people on P99 tell me that charm sucks and isn't worth using in groups.

That doesn't mean that it's true.

[Bazia]

Originally Posted by Khorza [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've had people on P99 tell me that charm sucks and isn't worth using in groups.

That doesn't mean that it's true.

yeah I'm sure people are telling you not to abuse charm in groups [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Madbad]

Originally Posted by Khorza [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've had people on P99 tell me that charm sucks and isn't worth using in groups.

That doesn't mean that it's true.

The only time that is true is when your group has tons of DPS and is just shredding mobs.

Then you might want the XP from the spawn you are holding up.

Say your camp has 10 mobs and you have one charmed. That's 10% less XP over the course of a session, provided your group is killing fast enough to have down time waiting for pops.

The only times I have been asked not to charm were because of this.