NY GRAND JURY VOTES TO INDICT TRUMP

[Ooloo]

Originally Posted by Origen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Okay since I have to make this horse drink
From: https://www.ama-assn.org/press-cente...ender-children

What, specifically, is wrong with this statement by the AMA? Remember to provide sources -those things at the bottom that cite papers and studies that are always absent from right wing youtube.

Here's what's wrong with it: the studies are incredibly limited methodologically. They essentially ask people six months to a year after having treatment if they feel good about it, and unsurprisingly most respondents say "I sure do!". And then there is no follow up beyond that initial timeframe. The sample sizes are also absurdly small. You would need a drastically larger sample size, tracked over decades, to make any definitive proclamations about whether this actually helps people, because the outcomes are often permanent and irreversible. You also need to account for the data regarding regret and de-transition, and show that the benefits of transition outweigh the risks. As detailed here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10027312/

And here are your sources:

1. Adult development and quality of life of transgender and gender nonconforming people. Bockting W, Coleman E, Deutsch MB, et al. Curr Opin Endocrinol Diabetes Obes. 2016;23:188–197. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
2. Standards of care for the health of transsexual, transgender, and gender-nonconforming people, version 7. Coleman E, Bockting W, Botzer M, et al. Int J Transgend. 2012;13:165–232. [Google Scholar]
3. The lifetime prevalence of psychiatric diagnoses in an academic gender reassignment service. Grobler GP. Curr Opin Psychiatry. 2017;30:391–395. [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
4. Mental health concerns and insurance denials among transgender adolescents. Nahata L, Quinn GP, Caltabellotta NM, Tishelman AC. LGBT Health. 2017;4:188–193. [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
5. Mental health outcomes in transgender and nonbinary youths receiving gender-affirming care. Tordoff DM, Wanta JW, Collin A, Stepney C, Inwards-Breland DJ, Ahrens K. JAMA Netw Open. 2022;5:0. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
6. How early in life do transgender adults begin to experience gender dysphoria? Why this matters for patients, providers, and for our healthcare system. Zaliznyak M, Yuan N, Bresee C, Freedman A, Garcia MM. Sex Med. 2021;9:100448. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
7. Prevalence of gender identity disorder and suicide risk among transgender veterans utilizing veterans health administration care. Blosnich JR, Brown GR, Shipherd Phd JC, Kauth M, Piegari RI, Bossarte RM. Am J Public Health. 2013;103:0–32. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
8. The mental health of transgender youth: advances in understanding. Connolly MD, Zervos MJ, Barone CJ 2nd, Johnson CC, Joseph CL. J Adolesc Health. 2016;59:489–495. [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
9. Suicide attempts among a cohort of transgender and gender diverse people. Mak J, Shires DA, Zhang Q, et al. Am J Prev Med. 2020;59:570–577. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
10. Mental health and timing of gender-affirming care. Sorbara JC, Chiniara LN, Thompson S, Palmert MR. Pediatrics. 2020;146:0. [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
11. Suicidality disparities between transgender and cisgender adolescents. Thoma BC, Salk RH, Choukas-Bradley S, Goldstein TR, Levine MD, Marshal MP. Pediatrics. 2019;144:0. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
12. Transgender adolescent suicide behavior. Toomey RB, Syvertsen AK, Shramko M. Pediatrics. 2018;142:0. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
13. Gender dysphoria in adults. Zucker KJ, Lawrence AA, Kreukels BP. Annu Rev Clin Psychol. 2016;12:217–247. [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
14. Mental health of transgender youth in care at an adolescent urban community health center: a matched retrospective cohort study. Reisner SL, Vetters R, Leclerc M, Zaslow S, Wolfrum S, Shumer D, Mimiaga MJ. J Adolesc Health. 2015;56:274–279. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
15. Baseline physiologic and psychosocial characteristics of transgender youth seeking care for gender dysphoria. Olson J, Schrager SM, Belzer M, Simons LK, Clark LF. J Adolesc Health. 2015;57:374–380. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
16. Assessment of health conditions and health service use among transgender patients in Canada. Abramovich A, de Oliveira C, Kiran T, Iwajomo T, Ross LE, Kurdyak P. JAMA Netw Open. 2020;3:0. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
17. Assessment of cardiovascular risk in transgender patients presenting for gender-affirming care. Denby KJ, Cho L, Toljan K, Patil M, Ferrando CA. Am J Med. 2021;134:1002–1008. [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
18. Psychiatric disorders in the U.S. transgender population. Hanna B, Desai R, Parekh T, Guirguis E, Kumar G, Sachdeva R. Ann Epidemiol. 2019;39:1–7. [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
19. A 2020 review of mental health comorbidity in gender dysphoric and gender non-conforming people. Paz-Otero M, Becerra-Fernández A, Pérez-López G, Ly-Pen D. J Psychiatry Treat Res. 2021;3:44–55. [Google Scholar]
20. High burden of mental health problems, substance use, violence, and related psychosocial factors in transgender, non-binary, and gender diverse youth and young adults. Newcomb ME, Hill R, Buehler K, Ryan DT, Whitton SW, Mustanski B. Arch Sex Behav. 2020;49:645–659. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
21. Substance use among transgender and cisgender high school students. Fuxman S, Valenti M, Kessel Schneider S, O’Brien KHM, O’Donnell L. J LGBT Youth. 2021;18:40–

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Ooloo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here's what's wrong with it: the studies are incredibly limited methodologically. They essentially ask people six months to a year after having treatment if they feel good about it, and unsurprisingly most respondents say "I sure do!". And then there is no follow up beyond that initial timeframe. The sample sizes are also absurdly small. You would need a drastically larger sample size, tracked over decades, to make any definitive proclamations about whether this actually helps people, because the outcomes are often permanent and irreversible. You also need to account for the data regarding regret and de-transition, and show that the benefits of transition outweigh the risks. As detailed here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10027312/

And here are your sources:

1. Adult development and quality of life of transgender and gender nonconforming people. Bockting W, Coleman E, Deutsch MB, et al. Curr Opin Endocrinol Diabetes Obes. 2016;23:188–197. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
2. Standards of care for the health of transsexual, transgender, and gender-nonconforming people, version 7. Coleman E, Bockting W, Botzer M, et al. Int J Transgend. 2012;13:165–232. [Google Scholar]
3. The lifetime prevalence of psychiatric diagnoses in an academic gender reassignment service. Grobler GP. Curr Opin Psychiatry. 2017;30:391–395. [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
4. Mental health concerns and insurance denials among transgender adolescents. Nahata L, Quinn GP, Caltabellotta NM, Tishelman AC. LGBT Health. 2017;4:188–193. [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
5. Mental health outcomes in transgender and nonbinary youths receiving gender-affirming care. Tordoff DM, Wanta JW, Collin A, Stepney C, Inwards-Breland DJ, Ahrens K. JAMA Netw Open. 2022;5:0. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
6. How early in life do transgender adults begin to experience gender dysphoria? Why this matters for patients, providers, and for our healthcare system. Zaliznyak M, Yuan N, Bresee C, Freedman A, Garcia MM. Sex Med. 2021;9:100448. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
7. Prevalence of gender identity disorder and suicide risk among transgender veterans utilizing veterans health administration care. Blosnich JR, Brown GR, Shipherd Phd JC, Kauth M, Piegari RI, Bossarte RM. Am J Public Health. 2013;103:0–32. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
8. The mental health of transgender youth: advances in understanding. Connolly MD, Zervos MJ, Barone CJ 2nd, Johnson CC, Joseph CL. J Adolesc Health. 2016;59:489–495. [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
9. Suicide attempts among a cohort of transgender and gender diverse people. Mak J, Shires DA, Zhang Q, et al. Am J Prev Med. 2020;59:570–577. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
10. Mental health and timing of gender-affirming care. Sorbara JC, Chiniara LN, Thompson S, Palmert MR. Pediatrics. 2020;146:0. [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
11. Suicidality disparities between transgender and cisgender adolescents. Thoma BC, Salk RH, Choukas-Bradley S, Goldstein TR, Levine MD, Marshal MP. Pediatrics. 2019;144:0. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
12. Transgender adolescent suicide behavior. Toomey RB, Syvertsen AK, Shramko M. Pediatrics. 2018;142:0. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
13. Gender dysphoria in adults. Zucker KJ, Lawrence AA, Kreukels BP. Annu Rev Clin Psychol. 2016;12:217–247. [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
14. Mental health of transgender youth in care at an adolescent urban community health center: a matched retrospective cohort study. Reisner SL, Vetters R, Leclerc M, Zaslow S, Wolfrum S, Shumer D, Mimiaga MJ. J Adolesc Health. 2015;56:274–279. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
15. Baseline physiologic and psychosocial characteristics of transgender youth seeking care for gender dysphoria. Olson J, Schrager SM, Belzer M, Simons LK, Clark LF. J Adolesc Health. 2015;57:374–380. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
16. Assessment of health conditions and health service use among transgender patients in Canada. Abramovich A, de Oliveira C, Kiran T, Iwajomo T, Ross LE, Kurdyak P. JAMA Netw Open. 2020;3:0. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
17. Assessment of cardiovascular risk in transgender patients presenting for gender-affirming care. Denby KJ, Cho L, Toljan K, Patil M, Ferrando CA. Am J Med. 2021;134:1002–1008. [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
18. Psychiatric disorders in the U.S. transgender population. Hanna B, Desai R, Parekh T, Guirguis E, Kumar G, Sachdeva R. Ann Epidemiol. 2019;39:1–7. [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
19. A 2020 review of mental health comorbidity in gender dysphoric and gender non-conforming people. Paz-Otero M, Becerra-Fernández A, Pérez-López G, Ly-Pen D. J Psychiatry Treat Res. 2021;3:44–55. [Google Scholar]
20. High burden of mental health problems, substance use, violence, and related psychosocial factors in transgender, non-binary, and gender diverse youth and young adults. Newcomb ME, Hill R, Buehler K, Ryan DT, Whitton SW, Mustanski B. Arch Sex Behav. 2020;49:645–659. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
21. Substance use among transgender and cisgender high school students. Fuxman S, Valenti M, Kessel Schneider S, O’Brien KHM, O’Donnell L. J LGBT Youth. 2021;18:40–

I think you make a fair point there...however, why do the studies even matter? As a Republican I could care less if these people transition and whether they do or do not regret it later on. Do you know why? Because I'm a Republican...which means I'm for small government, which means shit like this isn't something we need government bans/limits on (likewise, I don't think taxpayers should have to bear any burden (or increased insurance costs) to enable these people to get their hormones or whatever) and it shouldn't be a political issue.

If they wanna transition, go for it.

[unsunghero]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think you make a fair point there...however, why do the studies even matter? As a Republican I could care less if these people transition and whether they do or do not regret it later on. Do you know why? Because I'm a Republican...which means I'm for small government, which means shit like this isn't something we need government bans/limits on (likewise, I don't think taxpayers should have to bear any burden (or increased insurance costs) to enable these people to get their hormones or whatever) and it shouldn't be a political issue.

If they wanna transition, go for it.

As adults yea. I think Ooloo has concerns for kids having the autonomy being able to make life altering medical decisions with their bodies, despite not being considered mature enough to vote, drive a car, live independently, work, use beer or cigarettes, etc

[unsunghero]

HRT for women can be a crude example of how the testing sample size matters for people’s individual response

The medical field wanted to stop doing HRT for women, because they discovered that like 4/1000 women who took HRT developed breast cancer as a result. Now, had they only previously tested HRT on, say, 200 women, and had no side effects, they could claim HRT was previously completely safe

But widen up the test group and take into account people’s individual genetic makeup, and all of a sudden uh oh, we have this very serious side effect emerge. Still a low chance at 4/1000, but some women might decide now it’s not worth the risk

But they wouldn’t know about the risk before because the test group was so small. It’s like the randomness of TRT for men, some are called (probably informally) “hyper-responders”, and are more likely to develop gyno or prostate cancer or something. With something as widely practiced as TRT is now, you see a wide range of side effects. Luckily most still minor

[unsunghero]

Originally Posted by unsunghero [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As adults yea. I think Ooloo has concerns for kids having the autonomy being able to make life altering medical decisions with their bodies, despite not being considered mature enough to vote, drive a car, live independently, work, use beer or cigarettes, etc

“But what about their parents and the clinicians”

Parents have a great deal of influence on their kids, and kids by nature are built to appease. So I am skeptical there

And clinicians…if their goal is truly to be objective and unbiased, they should have a low rate of recommending medical transition because true gender dysphoria should still be exceedingly rare. But do they? I think a sign of a smart and careful parent would be to investigate the medical transition recommendation rates of these clinics

[aussenseiter]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

we need government bans/limits on

(likewise, I don't think taxpayers should have to bear any burden (or increased insurance costs) to enable these people to get their hormones or whatever).

Is there a price point where the latter wrong would justify the former wrong?

[Origen]

How we gonna study long term effects of these drugs on kids if the therapy is banned?

If giving kids the drugs might harm them, but not giving them drugs definitely does harm them... why ban the therapies?

God I hate debate club shit

[Patriam1066]

Originally Posted by Origen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Okay since I have to make this horse drink
From: https://www.ama-assn.org/press-cente...ender-children

What, specifically, is wrong with this statement by the AMA? Remember to provide sources -those things at the bottom that cite papers and studies that are always absent from right wing youtube.

The AMA got cucked my man. They don’t even use STEP scores anymore

[Evia]

Originally Posted by Origen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How we gonna study long term effects of these drugs on kids if the therapy is banned?

If giving kids the drugs might harm them, but not giving them drugs definitely does harm them... why ban the therapies?

God I hate debate club shit

Define "definitely does harm them" by not taking it?
How do we know this?
How do we know the medication isn't going to harm them more?
If it's going to have an impact on them for the rest of their lives, I'd argue that is the 'definitely does harm' category. Not the other way around.

[Origen]

Originally Posted by Patriam1066 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The AMA got cucked my man. They don’t even use STEP scores anymore

I am very critical of the AMA, but it isn't on the subject of the actual medical advice they have to offer. I wouldn't know where to even start with that shit, and neither does Ooloo, as he demonstrated so expertly.

They limit the supply of doctors to control the healthcare market, but they've also saved bazillions of lives. It's a mixed bag.