Solo Barbarian Shaman Stat Allocation

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You need to show evidence for your thesis[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] So far I have video evidence and multiple Magelos. Then we can actually have a discussion about it.

I have ... 24+ pages worth. Maybe you could be a little more specific about what part you disagree with? Do you think most Shaman < 60 are hitting stat caps? Do you think < 60 mana saves more lives than HP? Do you think non-raid Shaman spend most of their time playing the character after they hit 60, get Torpor, and get good gear?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I already clearly rebutted your "evidence" earlier, you just ignored it:

Meanwhile, even if you could somehow prove that 60 Shaman with Torpor and with Dragon-soloing gear need max mana, it stil wouldn't change the fact that for 95+% of a Shaman's career, HP will be more valuable than Mana.

The problem is you think anecdotes and poorly constructed logic are rebuttals. I have actual evidence, you do not. You somehow believe being an armchair general when it comes to fighting something like a WW dragon is good enough. When you are in a fight like that, you are making quick decisions based on how the fight is going. Claiming that "you could have theoretically cast your spells more optimally" doesn't really help your argument that 75HP is better, because I could make that same argument in a way that makes mana seem better. Since both arguments are theoretical, it is hard to determine which one is correct without practical application. That is why video evidence is great, because you can see how a fight happens in a practical scenario, rather than an armchair general scenario.

If you honestly believe 25 STA > 25 WIS (starting stats) is true for 95% of a Shaman's life, you need to actually show some evidence for this lol. You claim that I am the one just saying "I am right and you are wrong", but for some reason you believe that your "95% of a shaman's life" argument is somehow beyond question. Why is that? You do know you are doing exactly what you claim I am doing, right? You saying "95% of a shaman's life" is equivalent to "I am right, and you are wrong", because you refuse to define what that means. That is why I am asking for a Magelo, for example, so we can figure out what you are actually talking about.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Let's recap: in this thread alone, I didn't use the PE hammer as an example of non-raid Shaman gear, I didn't call me out for not providing a Magelo ... that was provided on page 1, and I didn't simply stop reading/responding in the middle of the conversation (which anyone can see by going a couple pages back).

But keep making (bad) attacks against me instead of logical arguments, I'm sure it's convincing peole [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is such a silly point that I have already rebutted. I just used PE hammer as an example of how Shaman's have more STA buffs than WIS buffs. There is no "gotcha" here, it is just a fact. Please stop wasting time on this, because it is just a weak an nonsensical attempt at a "gotcha", and not a valid point.

And yes, people will see that you have been reading posts extremely poorly and then responding with incorrect information. There really isn't much I can do to continue a conversation based on your misreading of it. Resetting was an easier way to try and get you to read the arguments properly. I am not saying it worked too well unfortunately, but it's a waste of time to continue discussing something that you don't have the correct information on. Thinking I have PE on when I don't, for example, taints your understanding of how easy it is to max your buffs out.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

At the very end of your Shaman career, yes you can. But even at the very end of your career, you still won't be using Stamina potions for most fights, because you don't need them for most fights (again, max stats are not important) and it's not worth wasting the plat/time to make them.

You might well use consumables (potions, root nets, emeralds for Avatar, etc.) at level 60, with Torpor and good gear, to do a really tough fight! But again, you'd do so at the very end, not for 95+% of your Shaman's life.

I have factually disproven this, please stop saying it. You can cap STA in your 40s with 20k plat or less. Or provide a Magelo for what you think 95% of a Shaman's life is.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Another mark of a good debater: they keep bringing up points the other side has already conceded. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We both agree: it is possible to max your stamina with cheap gear. But you keep burying your head like an ostrich (that's not a real thing BTW) when it comes to addressing the point I won't concede, which is that no real Shaman is going to dedicate their gear to maxing their Stamina! They are going to want other stuff ... stuff like the Shrunken Goblin Earring that you yourself keep saying is so valuable.

Again, you keep missing all the points. If a Shaman will reduce their max HP by 35 or more via Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring and not notice a difference, they will not notice a missing 75HP. You don't understand when max HP actually matters. The Magelo I posted is not designed to show an optimal Shaman build, it is to show you that a poor Shaman who is a casual player can max STA with little investment. You can't have it both ways: You can't claim that 95% of a Shaman's career won't cap STA because they are not twinked, are too casual, etc., and then turn around and say most Shamans can easily afford Fungi Tunic, so they will just buy that. YOU NEED TO DEFINE WHAT 95% OF A SHAMAN'S LIFE LOOKS LIKE. Otherwise it is just some nebulous term you are throwing around because it can't be disproven.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Going to repost this part because I believe it is the crux of our disagreement. I am concerned you will get too distracted on the other points, and misread them, creating further problems.

You need to define what "95% of a Shaman's life" actually looks like. Otherwise that is basically your version of "I am right and you are wrong", which obviously can't be disproven, and we are at an impasse.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem is you think anecdotes and poorly constructed logic are rebuttals. I have actual evidence, you do not. You somehow believe being an armchair general when it comes to fighting something like a WW dragon is good enough. When you are in a fight like that, you are making quick decisions based on how the fight is going. Claiming that "you could have theoretically cast your spells more optimally" doesn't really help your argument that 75HP is better, because I could make that same argument in a way that makes mana seem better. Since both arguments are theoretical, it is hard to determine which one is correct without practical application. That is why video evidence is great, because you can see how a fight happens in a practical scenario, rather than an armchair general scenario.

If you honestly believe 25 STA > 25 WIS (starting stats) is true for 95% of a Shaman's life, you need to actually show some evidence for this lol. You claim that I am the one just saying "I am right and you are wrong", but for some reason you believe that your "95% of a shaman's life" argument is somehow beyond question. Why is that? You do know you are doing exactly what you claim I am doing, right? You saying "95% of a shaman's life" is equivalent to "I am right, and you are wrong", because you refuse to define what that means. That is why I am asking for a Magelo, for example, so we can figure out what you are actually talking about.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have factually disproven this, please stop saying it. You can cap STA in your 40s with 20k plat or less. Or provide a Magelo for what you think 95% of a Shaman's life is.

Again, DeathsSilkyMist thinks that because he declares something to be a fact, it is [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Meanwhile, as I keep repeating, we both agree that if you focus on Stamina, you can cap Stamina [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But if you try instead to have a good Shaman, one with an instant-click item, a regen item, AC, raw HP, an epic, a JBB, resists, and so on, it's nearly impossible to max Stamina without good (ie. end of game) gear.

So providing a pre-60 Magelo would be pointless: I already provided Loramin, who has far better gear, and yet (even if you fix his starting stats to have +25 Stamina instead) hasn't hit the Stamina cap. What would showing a worse-geared Shaman demonstrate?

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, you keep missing all the points. If a Shaman will reduce their max HP by 35 or more via Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring and not notice a difference, they will not notice a missing 75HP. You don't understand when max HP actually matters.

The only point you've made is that the earring is better than HP ... and we both agree on that!

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The Magelo I posted is not designed to show an optimal Shaman build, it is to show you that a poor Shaman who is a casual player can max STA with little investment.

Again, we both agree they can ... but I disagree that they'd want to. A Shaman is going to want other things (the list I keep repeating over and over) besides Stamina, whatever level they are.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can't have it both ways: You can't claim that 95% of a Shaman's career won't cap STA because they are not twinked, are too casual, etc., and then turn around and say most Shamans can easily afford Fungi Tunic. YOU NEED TO DEFINE WHAT 95% OF A SHAMAN'S LIFE LOOKS LIKE. Otherwise it is just some nebulous term you are throwing around because it can't be disproven.

You're making a false dichotomy (more dishonest arguing). It's not like the only options are "end game gear" and "use every slot to max your Stamina gear", but you're dishonestly trying to make it sound like there is.

Again, most Shaman will want:

an instant-click item, a regen item, AC, raw HP, an epic, a JBB, resists, and so on

All you need to do to prove your point is show a Magelo that has all those things, but also hits the Stamina cap, without using end-game gear. If your argument is so solid it should be trivial to provide that Magelo: just take Loramin's or one of these all-Stamina Magelos and tweak them a little ... but I don't think you can, because a realistic Shaman will not hit stat caps without end game gear.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem is you think anecdotes and poorly constructed logic are rebuttals. I have actual evidence, you do not.

Your "evidence" so far is a video of a fight at the end game, which disproves nothing about the 95% of the Shaman's life leading up to that end game (and neither proves nor disproves anything about being 60 with Torpor/good gear either).

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please concede or provide additional evidence.

Of what? You have to make a claim for me to dispute it, and I have disputed all your claims I care to. Like I keep saying, don't just say (as you essentially are) "you're wrong"; argue against a point I've made. For instance:

• I believe realistic/actual Shaman below 60 will hit the stat cap because ____
• I believe Mana will save a Shaman's life before 60 more than HP will because ____
• I believe that once a Shaman has gotten 60, and Torpor, and good enough gear to max stats, they will spend more than 5% of their total playtime playing that character because _____

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You somehow believe being an armchair general when it comes to fighting something like a WW dragon is good enough. When you are in a fight like that, you are making quick decisions based on how the fight is going. Claiming that "you could have theoretically did your spells more optimally" doesn't really help your argument that 75HP is better, because I could make that same argument in a way that makes mana seem better. Since both arguments are theoretical, it is hard to determine which one is correct without practical application.

Great, so you understand why your video didn't prove anything: it's completely arbrirtary how many times you chose to Cannabalize or Torpor during that more-than-15-minute fight, and yet a slight change in your behavior would have resulted in a vastly different amount of HP/Mana at the end of the fight. We're finally on the same page ...

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is why video evidence is great, because you can see how a fight happens in a practical scenario, rather than an armchair general scenario.

/facepalm

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Going to repost this part because I believe it is the crux of our disagreement. I am concerned you will get too distracted on the other points, and misread them, creating further problems.

Basically you need to define what "95% of a Shaman's life" actually looks like. Otherwise that is basically your version of "I am right and you are wrong", which obviously can't be disproven, and we are at an impasse.

So you get to just ignore giant posts of rebuttals I make to you, but then you can cherry-pick your favorite argument out of context? More dishonest debating, but again, I'm game!

However, I don't agre with yet another of your "declarations", that I need to define anything. I'm perfectly happy with whoever reads this imagining for themselves how much of a Shaman's life is spent leveling up (a whole hell of a lot), how much is spent getting Torpor (a lot), how much is acquiring end-game gear that will make them hit stat caps (a lot more) ... and how much time the Shaman will get played once they finally have everything or nearly everything they could possibly want.

To me it's self-evident that 95+% is the journey, and only 5% is playing your character once you've gotten them everything; I feel that point stands without any further evidence.

[Jibartik]

face it deathslymist, before you are born: you're a fly.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

However, I don't agre with yet another of your "declarations", that I need to define anything.

To me it's self-evident that 95+% is the journey, and only 5% is playing your character once you've gotten them everything; I feel that point stands without any further evidence.

/Thread

You refuse to provide any evidence for your primary thesis, which is 25 STA > 25 WIS for "95% of Shaman's life" (which is still undefined). This means you just have an opinion. It is fine to have an opinion, but it isn't based on any facts within the game, so please do not assert it as such.

You also still have not defined "95% of a Shaman's life", because I don't know what "gotten them everything" actually means. There are multiple gear combinations one player could consider "everything". I also disagree that everybody plays the way you describe. Some people play their characters for years after they hit 60, even if they never raid lol. I am one of those people. I have played at least 40% of Shamwowi's life at level 60.

Until you define "95% of a Shaman's life", you can't assert your opinion as anything other than an opinion.

You have conceded my other points:

1. WIS is harder to cap during the Velious era than STA generally speaking. This is WITHOUT RAID GEAR. Usually the best starting stat is the primary stat that is hardest to cap, because a capped stat isn't helping you. This means 25 WIS / 5 STA is generally the better way to go (or 25 WIS / 5 AGI for Ogres). If you don't believe me, you can create Magelos with various gear and see how the stats shake out. Remember that you also get a +50 STA buff, but only a +10 WIS buff that is an illusion, which means it falls off more often due to zoning. You can also drink a +STA potion that you can craft yourself.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, no argument from me, at 60 with good gear Stamina is easier to cap.

2. The only reason why you would want to put 25 into STA instead is if you are planning out your gear/strategies ahead of time, and want to save a buff slot in the long run. This is because if you can cap STA without needing Riotous Health / Primal Essence, you end up freeing up a buff slot, because you do not need to cast Riotous Health on yourself. Freeing up a buff slot can be difficult to do, so this can be more important than just raw stats.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And, if you're not using that stuff ... you're not needing to hit the buff cap. Whatever your 15th (or even 13th or 14th) buff is, it's not doing much. If you really want to discuss it, post all 15 self-cast, non-consumable (and non-PE hammer) buffs you're casting, so we can discuss what the oh-so-valuable 15th buff is actually doing for you.

You have shown that you are willing to admit that Shamans can cap their buffs at least, even before 60. My point has always been that clearing a buff slot can help you if you are thinking ahead about which buffs you want to use on a normal basis. Clearing buff slots is not as easy as putting on stat gear, so it is something to consider because that is a non-standard bonus.

3. Starting stats will NOT really help you during the leveling process, because stats scale by level. You will need to be around level 40 before you start noticing a difference. Generally speaking if you are concerned about starting stats, you are looking towards the end game, where those points end up giving you the most returns.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Look, I agree with everyone else in this thread: THIS SHIT DOESN'T MATTER!

4. 25 STA gives you 75HP at level 60. It gives you something like 30 HP at level 30. Neither 75HP nor 30HP will save your life a significant amount of times. If this wasn't true, everybody would be running two HP earrings instead of a stat earring + Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring. They would be getting https://wiki.project1999.com/Star_of_Eyes instead. Generally speaking Shamans do not do this, because the stat penalty from putting on Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is insignificant. Having another inventory slot open for a bag is better, and Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is easier to use because it does not require a target. If losing 35 HP or more on your earring doesn't change how often you die, why do you think the 25 STA will make a difference? Having a Hammered Golden Hoop instead of the Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring would give you that 75HP plus 8 more STA, and yet people wear Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring instead.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Look, I agree with everyone else in this thread: THIS SHIT DOESN'T MATTER!

5. Shamans can in fact run out of mana before dying, which is why the +25 WIS can give you a small chance to survive a bad encounter. Similar to the +25 STA, this chance is very small. The usual culprit for this both Pre-Torpor and Post-Torpor are strings of resists and/or root breaks. Shaman spells are expensive, which means fizzling, resists, and root breaks can really add up quick if you are not careful. Here is a video of me fighting Bravatar: https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?t=1244 . As you can see at that timestamp, I am low on both HP and Mana. If he had given me one or two more unlucky resists, I would be completely out of Mana. If I was at 2% mana and 40% health, I would probably gate for safety because a double attack from Bravatar would get me very close to dying. Remember, this is me fighting Bravatar in mid-tier raid gear, so a lesser geared Shaman would be even lower on Mana.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, yes, you are correct: +25 Starting Stamina will not save your life often!

But it will save your life more than +25 Wisdom.

You have no evidence to assert this claim, and I have a video where the +25 WIS helped me survive. This is where you need to actually define what "95% of a "Shaman's life" is, so we can see when the STA might be better than WIS. Or you need to provide some data showing how often HP has saved your life vs. mana. You are making the claim, you need to actually show why it is correct. The burden of proof is on you.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

/Thread

You refuse to provide any evidence for your primary thesis, which is 25 STA > 25 WIS for 95% of Shaman's life. This means you just have an opinion. It is fine to have an opinion, but it isn't based on any facts within the game, so please do not assert it as such.

You also still have not defined "95% of a "Shaman's life", because I don't know what "gotten them everything" actually means. There are multiple gear combinations one player could consider "everything".

Until you define "95% of a "Shaman's life", you can't assert your opinion as anything other than an opinion.

Actually, that just seems to be a difference between us: I'm fine with making points (like that most of the time in EQ is spent on the journey, not the destination), and leaving it up to an intelligent reader to decide for themselves whether what I'm saying makes sense to them or not.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You have conceded my other points:

1. WIS is harder to cap during the Velious era than STA generally speaking.

I'll happily concede as much (while pointing out that it's irrelevant, since again no one will hit either cap for 95+% of their life). But I don't agree that:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the best starting stat is the primary stat that is hardest to cap, because a capped stat isn't helping you.

You've gone from objective truth to subjective statement in one sentence. Why would someone base a decision on what will affect them < 5% of the time, when they could base it on what will affect them 95+% of the time?

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only reason

Once again, whenever you start declaring "the only ___ is whatever my opinion is" ... I just stop reading.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

3. Starting stats will NOT really help you during the leveling process, because stats scale by level.

Gee, I feel like other people in this thread have also pointed out that starting stats don't matter, and someone argued with them that they do matter ... who could that have been ...

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok. If you're nauseated, stop reading and making pointless posts. OP is asking a question about starting stats, he isn't asking about how much you personally care about starting stats.

The funny thing is if you think gear is important, you think stats are important hehe. 25 points into WIS/STA is a lot gear-wise. That on average is at least 3 pieces of gear's worth, assuming it has a higher than average WIS/STA of 8+.

Regardless of what either poster said, we all agree (at least some of the time [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]) that starting stats are inconsequential ... and yet we (yourself included) have spent over 25 pages debating which one is less inconsequential.

I still maintain HP is, and saying "but stats are largely meaningless" won't change that.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

4. 25 STA gives you 75HP at level 60. It gives you something like 30 HP at level 30. Neither 75HP nor 30HP will save your life a significant amount of times.

Again, stats largely don't matter ... but no matter how many times you repeat this line of reasoning, it won't change the fact that Mana will save your life less than HP does.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

5. Shamans can in fact run out of mana before dying

Yes, they can. But as I keep asking, when you were leveling how many times did you start at full mana (maximums are irrelevant if you aren't using them), burn through all of your mana, and then die at the end for lack of mana?

Conversely, how many times did you start at full HP, but die for lack of HP? I'm 100% ok with letting an intelligent reader ask themselves these questions, and decide for themselves which stat will save their life more often; no further "evidence" is required.

And also, again, your video of a single fight, at 60, with Torpor, with good gear, is no evidence of anything ... but it's especially not evidence of what it's like for the 95+% of the time before you have all that.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You have no evidence to assert this claim, and I have a video where the +25 WIS helped me survive. This is where you need to actually define what "95% of a "Shaman's life" is, so we can see when the STA might be better than WIS.

Again, we don't have to keep talking: there's no reason for you to just keep repeating the same thing over and over. I'm 100% ok with whoever reads this judging the logical arguments I've made, and the "evidence" I've provided (thought experiments like the above, my Magelo, etc.) against your video.

If you feel you've made a strong case, and you feel your video is strong evidence, let's just stop posting here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I am sorry Loramin, but you can't keep making claims and then asking others to provide evidence. It doesn't work that way. I made claims and backed them up with evidence.

You refuse to define your thesis to a point where you could actually persuade me over to your side. The "95% of a Shaman's life" quote is your "I am right and you are wrong" sentence until you can define it.

I want people to get the correct information, and you keep saying STA > WIS as a starting stat when you have provided 0 evidence for this. So until you can actually start providing evidence and defining "95% of a Shaman's life", I will just keep reposting the helpful information people can use to see why WIS > STA as a starting stat most of the time:

1. WIS is harder to cap during the Velious era than STA generally speaking. This is WITHOUT RAID GEAR. Usually the best starting stat is the primary stat that is hardest to cap, because a capped stat isn't helping you. This means 25 WIS / 5 STA is generally the better way to go (or 25 WIS / 5 AGI for Ogres). If you don't believe me, you can create Magelos with various gear and see how the stats shake out. Remember that you also get a +50 STA buff, but only a +10 WIS buff that is an illusion, which means it falls off more often due to zoning. You can also drink a +STA potion that you can craft yourself.

2. The only reason why you would want to put 25 into STA instead is if you are planning out your gear/strategies ahead of time, and want to save a buff slot in the long run. This is because if you can cap STA without needing Riotous Health / Primal Essence, you end up freeing up a buff slot, because you do not need to cast Riotous Health on yourself. Freeing up a buff slot can be difficult to do, so this can be more important than just raw stats.

3. Starting stats will NOT really help you during the leveling process, because stats scale by level. You will need to be around level 40 before you start noticing a difference. Generally speaking if you are concerned about starting stats, you are looking towards the end game, where those points end up giving you the most returns.

4. 25 STA gives you 75HP at level 60. It gives you something like 30 HP at level 30. Neither 75HP nor 30HP will save your life a significant amount of times. If this wasn't true, everybody would be running two HP earrings instead of a stat earring + Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring. They would be getting https://wiki.project1999.com/Star_of_Eyes instead. Generally speaking Shamans do not do this, because the stat penalty from putting on Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is insignificant. Having another inventory slot open for a bag is better, and Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is easier to use because it does not require a target. If losing 35 HP or more on your earring doesn't change how often you die, why do you think the 25 STA will make a difference? Having a Hammered Golden Hoop instead of the Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring would give you that 75HP plus 8 more STA, and yet people wear Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring instead.

5. Shamans can in fact run out of mana before dying, which is why the +25 WIS can give you a small chance to survive a bad encounter. Similar to the +25 STA, this chance is very small. The usual culprit for this both Pre-Torpor and Post-Torpor are strings of resists and/or root breaks. Shaman spells are expensive, which means fizzling, resists, and root breaks can really add up quick if you are not careful. Here is a video of me fighting Bravatar: https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?t=1244 . As you can see at that timestamp, I am low on both HP and Mana. If he had given me one or two more unlucky resists, I would be completely out of Mana. If I was at 2% mana and 40% health, I would probably gate for safety because a double attack from Bravatar would get me very close to dying. Remember, this is me fighting Bravatar in mid-tier raid gear, so a lesser geared Shaman would be even lower on Mana.

[loramin]

Look you're clearly ignoring everything I say, and just repeating the same thing over and over, so again: if you have nothing new to contribute to the conversation, don't keep repeating the same shit over and over like an autistic robot.

Just say "I feel I've made my case, and I am confident an intelligent reader will be able to follow the logic of it." Here, I'll go first:

I feel I've made my case, and I am confident an intelligent reader will be able to follow the logic of it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Look you're clearly ignoring everything I say, and just repeating the same thing over and over, so again: if you have nothing new to contribute to the conversation, don't keep repeating the same shit over and over like an autistic robot.

Just say "I feel I've made my case, and I am confident an intelligent reader will be able to follow the logic of it." Here, I'll go first:

I feel I've made my case, and I am confident an intelligent reader will be able to follow the logic of it.

I didn't ignore what you said. You can keep saying that but it isn't true. I don't have to respond to every block of text each time when it is the same thing you have been saying.

The problem is you are the one who is repeating "95% of a Shaman's life" without defining it, and using it as an "I am right and you are wrong" argument. This is why the conversation isn't moving forward. If you could define it, then we could actually use real data to see how often you could cap STA vs. WIS, and at what points in your journey STA could be greater than WIS, or vice versa. You could even convince me over to your side!

As it stands, I am not willing to concede you made any kind of intelligent case. Your argument is simply "I have an undefined time period where STA is greater than WIS as a starting stat, and this is true without the need to define this time period".