Best 4 person all caster/priest group - Page 247

PlsNoBan · #**2461** 09-11-2022, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1: This proves nothing other than 1 data set says mage DPS will kill mobs x amount faster and x is not large enough to gain y more spawns in z amount of time at said camp. This does not prove irrelevance. Killing things faster is relevant even if it means you get 0 extra PH or named. I assume you would take a rogue over a paladin for a DPS spot in your group even if no extra named/PH were gained right? Why is that?

2: You have yet to provide any data whatsoever or even provide a sound argument for why a shamans redundant heals and utility is beneficial to the group in any meaningful way outside of very few niche camps/mobs that you mention. You cannot heal a full HP target. Not to mention your heal slows the target which is detrimental to the main source of your groups damage (the charm pets). Any decent cleric is not going to run out of mana ever healing in a group with 2 good enchanters. There are already 2 people that can slow almost as good as you. 2 other players with as good or better CC. A mage provides similar malo. What does shaman bring that this group needs besides mediocre dps and slightly better slow/malo that is fairly negligible? The mage pet is tankier than yours. The mage pet provides respectable DPS with no mana requirement. There is literally nothing shaman brings that matters or is better than a mage/necro/enchanter for the 4th slot in ALMOST every situation. Again you have provided 0 data to support your claims here. The only data you've ever brought is strictly related to DPS between shaman and mage. All the data points to mage and you stubbornly are still trying to prove why shaman is better based solely on your preference for unnecessary extra "safety"

DSM really out here trying to say his ideal group is calculating minimum DPS required to keep a PH cleared then filling the rest of the group with redundant healers just to justify his nonsensical argument

Hilarious

DeathsSilkyMist · #**2462** 09-11-2022, 09:04 PM

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

For reference, Fungi King has around 18000 HP. That means a group is saving roughly 9 seconds from the extra 50 DPS. For this to give you an extra spawn, you would need to kill Fungi King around 200 times in a row, or camp him for 100 hours straight.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

Gloomlord · #**2463** 09-11-2022, 10:11 PM

You know what DSM is doing now?

This is something called "Madness Mantra".

"Just ignore the trolls!" -- says DSM to the non-existent silent watchers.

PlsNoBan · #**2464** 09-11-2022, 10:42 PM

Please ignore DSM in this thread. He is just trolling. He has accumulated over 800 posts that are literally just bad data and bad arguments. He shouldn't since everyone knows the things he's saying are wrong and stupid, but he seems to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Shaman doesn't belong in the best overall 4 person caster/priest group for a variety of very obvious reasons that require no data or calculations

Enchanters solo better than warriors

Gloomlord · #**2465** 09-11-2022, 10:47 PM

The man has lost the game, but now he retreats within a psychosis where there are still people listening to his "wisdom".

Pathetic.

cd288 · #**2466** 09-11-2022, 11:17 PM

Yet again: DSM dies on the hill that shamans do better dps than mages. When proved wrong about dps, he changes the argument to “well the extra dps isn’t that beneficial so shaman is the better choice”

This dude changes arguments at the speed of light lol

The only positive to this is he’s so obsessed with the fact that he keeps being proven wrong in this thread that he spends all his time in here; so at least he’s inflicting his insufferable presence on us in other threads

Kich867 · #**2467** 09-11-2022, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yet again: DSM dies on the hill that shamans do better dps than mages. When proved wrong about dps, he changes the argument to “well the extra dps isn’t that beneficial so shaman is the better choice”

This dude changes arguments at the speed of light lol

The only positive to this is he’s so obsessed with the fact that he keeps being proven wrong in this thread that he spends all his time in here; so at least he’s inflicting his insufferable presence on us in other threads

Not to be too pedantic but, he never actually said that, that was people being nerds or whatever.

His original statement was:

Quote:

Shaman pet + Shaman DoTs deal good damage too, so it isn't like a Mage is putting out way more DPS. They are still mostly a single target DPS toon, like Shamans.

Again, Shaman pet is pretty tanky. 2400 HP (with FoS) and Torpor is no slouch when it comes to off-tanking.

But as I said before, level range matters. I agree Mage is better before 60.

He stated that mages deal better dps and that they're better pre-60. He pointed out that the mage dps is basically useless in the group anyways and his perspective was that shamans offer utility and, if didn't need to, could still provide some dps. This is all literally on the first page, people just lost their shit because it's DSM and they freak out apparently when this guy talks.

Gloomlord · #**2468** 09-11-2022, 11:37 PM

But it's worthless, redundant utility. We've explained this time and time again, and he refuses to listen.

10+ people all "freak out" and unite against this man, and you don't think that's alarming?

Is your self-righteousness really necessary here? Come on...

Ripqozko · #**2469** 09-11-2022, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kich867 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not to be too pedantic but, he never actually said that, that was people being nerds or whatever.

His original statement was:

He stated that mages deal better dps and that they're better pre-60. He pointed out that the mage dps is basically useless in the group anyways and his perspective was that shamans offer utility and, if didn't need to, could still provide some dps. This is all literally on the first page, people just lost their shit because it's DSM and they freak out apparently when this guy talks.

found the VQ batphoned guildy

cd288 · #**2470** 09-11-2022, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kich867 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not to be too pedantic but, he never actually said that, that was people being nerds or whatever.

His original statement was:

He stated that mages deal better dps and that they're better pre-60. He pointed out that the mage dps is basically useless in the group anyways and his perspective was that shamans offer utility and, if didn't need to, could still provide some dps. This is all literally on the first page, people just lost their shit because it's DSM and they freak out apparently when this guy talks.

Nah man go read through all his posts if you ever have the time. He has literally made the argument of shamans being better dps than mages expressly

At one point he was also tricked into saying that three enchanters and a cleric is the best option and then backtracked when he realized what happened lol