Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Headbusta [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the pocket cleric logic, is like saying in a boxing match you have a gun and are allowed to use that.

Like in the rules it doesn't say you cant use a gun, but obviously you cant.

Not at all. Pocket clerics are a common practice in P99. This is especially true among the experienced players we are discussing. OP never said you couldn't bring one. You are the one making the arbitrary claim pocket clerics cannot be used, simply because it helps your side. There is no logical reason why you can't bring a pocket cleric.

Originally Posted by Headbusta [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also it feels like like you are personally attacked because people don't hold shamans as high as you do. It's a 23 year old elf simulator, sorry the game isn't balanced and chanters are OP.

This is just silly. I don't feel attacked at all. Shamans are OP enough. I am simply not going to admit I am wrong because the trolls want me to. If they think they are right, they need to prove it. So far, they have done a very poor job.

[Kich867]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not at all. Pocket clerics are a common practice in P99. This is especially true among the experienced players we are discussing. OP never said you couldn't bring one. You are the one making the arbitrary claim pocket clerics cannot be used, simply because it helps your side. There is no logical reason why you can't bring a pocket cleric.

I mean, isn't the logical reason because it would open up the flood gates for bringing a bunch of "pocket" characters...at which point what the fuck are we even talking about?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Kich867 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I mean, isn't the logical reason because it would open up the flood gates for bringing a bunch of "pocket" characters...at which point what the fuck are we even talking about?

No, because you only need to level a cleric to 39 for CH, and 49 for a 90% res.

This is why "pocket clerics" are a very common thing on P99. They are probably the easiest "pocket" class to get the the point where they have everything they could need, with basically no gear at all. They also level pretty quickly due to having an experience bonus via being a halfling.

Even a "pocket druid" is harder to make, because you cannot teleport the user who is operating the "pocket druid", so you need to make at least two, or be very proactive about binding. Anybody can quickly swap to a "pocket cleric" for a quick res or CH and swap back. The cleric doesn't need to do anything else.

Many classes need more gear/levels/time invested to make them a "pocket" anything. It is going to take a LOT more energy to make a "pocket Torpor Shaman", for example.

[Headbusta]

I have a pocket raid GG

[Kich867]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, because you only need to level a cleric to 39 for CH, and 49 for a 90% res.

And you only need to level a druid to like, 44 to get most teleports, necros get twitch at 44. If leveling a cleric to 49 is considered low enough effort surely we can also include these other classes who are way, way better at leveling than clerics are? We can also bring a pocket bard along to join the group between pulls for mana and regen song.

Pocket characters should be off the table for the discussion.

[Troxx]

Torpor is only good because the class that can use it can cannibalize their hp into mana and turn that mana efficiently back into health that can be cannibalized yet again. That same class can also slow mobs, take quite a few hits … etc. It is the shaman paradigm that makes Torpor so game breakingly useful. We’ll … that and the only other non-cleric priest is stuck spending 400 mana for a 900hp heal vs low mana for a 1200-1500hp heal over time depending on luck and server ticks.

Beyond that torpor is actually annoying due to snare and slow effects.

That’s the funny thing about this thread. 100% of people here agree that shamans are insanely good. Beyond any doubt.

They just aren’t a contender for “best 4 man caster/priest only group”. They are nowhere near the worst.

If you said “best 4 man caster/priest only group where you can’t bring a cleric”? Sure, if the shaman is 60 and has torpor otherwise Druids become more viable.

If you said “best 4 man caster/priest only group where you can’t bring a enchanter”? Absolutely, without a doubt.

But with cleric healing (it is undeniably superior) and enchanter utility (again undeniably superior and overlaps with all critical utility functions) … shaman just doesn’t have a leg to stand on other than 55 combined shaman/pet dps.

I am glad you settled on a reasonable 55dps number DSM. That is a number I can actually get behind and believe when it’s the only thing you’re focusing on doing.

It is also incidentally worse than an unfocused level 60 water pet by itself … and even further behind a focused 60 water pet or epic pet.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Torpor is only good because the class that can use it can cannibalize their hp into mana and turn that mana efficiently back into health that can be cannibalized yet again. That same class can also slow mobs, take quite a few hits … etc. It is the shaman paradigm that makes Torpor so game breakingly useful. We’ll … that and the only other non-cleric priest is stuck spending 400 mana for a 900hp heal vs low mana for a 1200-1500hp heal over time depending on luck and server ticks.

Beyond that torpor is actually annoying due to snare and slow effects.

That’s the funny thing about this thread. 100% of people here agree that shamans are insanely good. Beyond any doubt.

They just aren’t a contender for “best 4 man caster/priest only group”. They are nowhere near the worst.

If you said “best 4 man caster/priest only group where you can’t bring a cleric”? Sure, if the shaman is 60 and has torpor otherwise Druids become more viable.

If you said “best 4 man caster/priest only group where you can’t bring a enchanter”? Absolutely, without a doubt.

But with cleric healing (it is undeniably superior) and enchanter utility (again undeniably superior and overlaps with all critical utility functions) … shaman just doesn’t have a leg to stand on other than 55 combined shaman/pet dps.

I am glad you settled on a reasonable 55dps number DSM. That is a number I can actually get behind and believe when it’s the only thing you’re focusing on doing.

It is also incidentally worse than an unfocused level 60 water pet by itself … and even further behind a focused 60 water pet or epic pet.

The 55 DPS number is assuming you are only chain pulling, and the group isn't allowing the Shaman to root/rot. Thank you for admitting my data is valid, though. This means you agree you can get DPS numbers outside of grouping.

A Shaman can do more DPS on any targets that take a minute or longer to kill, due to having DoTs.

A Shaman can do 150 DPS or more root rotting, and JimJam supported me when he said he saw a Shaman root/rotting Velk spiders in a group.

The issue is people keep trying to force the conversation down the narrow path that a level 60 group is simply chain pulling trash in Seb, and the Shaman can't root/rot. Of course the Shaman is going to have their DPS minimized in this very specific scenario.

The reality is DPS breakpoints exist, and the Mage is simply not giving you any more kills per hour with the extra DPS they provide in an Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage combination. A Shaman will open up more camp options than a Mage, while also providing more safety and adequate DPS.

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

reality

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.

Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe.

[Troxx]

Back to root rotting in parallel with your group lol

55dps isn’t adequate at 60. It’s pretty bad. My 60 paladin hovers around 75dps with BASIC buffs in seb. More on undead. I lub me some great spear of dawn procs.

repeat after me … shamans are not a group dps class and never will be

Solo? Yep.

Duo? Sure why not. Dots are gonna do their thing.

Trio? Depends on the trio.

Fast paced and/or high dps group? Oh hell no.

[Troxx]

QUIT TALKING ABOUT POCKET CHARACTERS!

The point is that pocket characters are not a part of this discussion. I am, however, loving the mental gymnastics requires to rationalize adding the shaman … because your argument obligates this group has to bring the class it really needed/wanted as a log in bot.