Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

-120 mage dps is more than double 55 shaman dps.
-In order to do that dps you are only casting dps and not doing any utility.
-the group didn’t need your utility to begin with.

So the mage is more twice as good as the shaman.

Awesome, glad we can agree.

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Your data. Your math. Not mine.

The group doesn’t need anything else from you.

Glad we agree.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your data. Your math. Not mine.

The group doesn’t need anything else from you.

Glad we agree.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

-120 mage dps is more than double 55 shaman dps.
-In order to do that dps you are only casting dps and not doing any utility.
-the group didn’t need your utility to begin with.

So the mage is more twice as good as the shaman.

Awesome, glad we can agree.

Nope. I am sorry you keep thinking you are randomly correct for no reason.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, this is a nonsense argument.

The Mage can only DPS. If your group only needs DPS during a specific encounter, your Shaman can just do DPS.

The benefit to a Shaman is the Shaman can switch out of DPS mode at any time. Your Mage is stuck in DPS mode forever, and can't help the party when an emergency occurs.

DPS has diminishing returns, so 65 DPS means less if your group's DPS is already really high.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would love to get some raw DPS data from Enchanters. I am literally just using your own data. It is hilarious you keep blaming me for your own data.

But the Enchanter pets doing more DPS hurts your argument further lol.

If the Enchanters are doing 220 DPS with pets, the math looks like this:

Your group is doing roughly 340 DPS with the Epic Mage, and 275 DPS with the Shaman.

The difference in time is 23.5 seconds vs. 29 seconds. The time difference drops to 5.5 seconds.

DPS has diminishing returns on kill speed the more you stack.

[Troxx]

Yeah we definitely making it to page 300.

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[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah we definitely making it to page 300.

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Thanks for continuing to prove my point about you being a troll.

You also start trolling when you know you can't counter my argument.

[Troxx]

I’ll admit it. I told DSM about 200 pages ago I would take him seriously when he actually went out and gathered him some actual data with him in an actual group. Since then I have probably contributed a healthy 80:20 mix of trolling his eclectic ramble of nonsense vs actual active engagement in the false hope he will have an epiphany.

It has been enjoyable.

We celebrated page 100 with many good times and laughter

We rolled our eyes and got slightly nauseated with page 200

Maybe a party at 300?

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[Troxx]

I will say this: emergencies when they do arise are the responsibility of everyone in the group. 3 players in this theoretical group already have massive (the best) capabilities to deal with these circumstances: enchanter x2 and cleric for reasons that should be OBVIOUS.

Can a mage help out? Yep. It’s called using your pet to tank and lock down crap and/or unloading your mana bar. In a full, reckless/feckless burn a mage can crank out around 200dps (+/-) a bit depending on resists to get shit dead. If the shit is dead, no emergency. Or how about dash out of range and CoTH the cleric to wipe aggro and then take one for the team (suicide) so the group can hard reboot. Or heck even quick camp the inevitable wipe and CoTH the cleric back to a safe spot to rez in?

None of this should ever happen (ever) in a group of competent players.

So yeah. Mages do more than twice the damage of shamans. The group doesn’t need the shaman utility or safety net.

So the mage is more than twice as desirable as the shaman.

Glad DSM and I finally agree!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I will say this: emergencies when they do arise are the responsibility of everyone in the group. 3 players in this theoretical group already have massive (the best) capabilities to deal with these circumstances: enchanter x2 and cleric for reasons that should be OBVIOUS.

Can a mage help out? Yep. It’s called using your pet to tank and lock down crap and/or unloading your mana bar. In a full, reckless/feckless burn a mage can crank out around 200dps (+/-) a bit depending on resists to get shit dead. If the shit is dead, no emergency. Or how about dash out of range and CoTH the cleric to wipe aggro and then take one for the team (suicide) so the group can hard reboot. Or heck even quick camp the inevitable wipe and CoTH the cleric back to a safe spot to rez in?

None of this should ever happen (ever) in a group of competent players.

Again, it is a silly argument to say groups never have problems, even with competent players. Even the best players make mistakes, have lag, etc.

You literally have to make the "players play perfectly" argument to even attempt to show a Shaman isn't necessary. Under this argument, Mage loses because 4x Enchanters would offer more DPS if you assume DPS > everything when playing perfectly. Again, this is a silly argument, and I have no idea why it is being made.

The most common group I had at Fungi King was Monk/Enchanter/Shaman and sometimes a Cleric, either a player or a pocket Cleric.

There are plenty of situations where safety is superior to a 2 second increase in kill speed. Camps can be taken if you wipe, so why risk it for 0 gains via DPS?

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, it is a silly argument to say groups never have problems, even with competent players. Even the best players make mistakes, have lag, etc.

Where did I say groups don’t have problems. This group already has 2 inevitable problems that are destined to repeat … the charms WILL break. What I did say is that this group already has 3 members of the 2 best classes to deal with problems. They don’t need anything your shaman has to offer.

Even if the cleric flat out goes linkdead and has to log back in, 2 enchanters should be able to handle their pets, the mob they are fighting, and keep any adds locked down until the cleric is back in.

Have you never played with a good enchanter? Imagine having 2 of them …

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Where did I say groups don’t have problems. This group already has 2 inevitable problems that are destined to repeat … the charms WILL break. What I did say is that this group already has 3 members of the 2 best classes to deal with problems. They don’t need anything your shaman has to offer.

Even if the cleric flat out goes linkdead and has to log back in, 2 enchanters should be able to handle their pets, the mob they are fighting, and keep any adds locked down until the cleric is back in.

Have you never played with a good enchanter? Imagine having 2 of them …

You said groups don't have problems right here:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

None of this should ever happen (ever) in a group of competent players.

You are contradicting yourself by trying to walk this thin line of saying groups are competent enough to never wipe (don't have problems), but actually do have some problems, but can handle emergencies equally well regardless of their groups composition (level of utility). It's a very shaky argument.

Again, if this magical unicorn of a group exists, they would just run 4x Enchanters and a pocket cleric due to how absolutely pro they are, and how much they believe DPS matters above all else.

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You literally have to make the "players play perfectly" argument to even attempt to show a Shaman isn't necessary.

In irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - you yourself attempted to provide/present raw math as realistic expectations of class performances; you literally tried to remove ANY players from the equation and claimed that "data" was somehow relevant to or had bearing upon this discussion hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Under this argument. Again, this is a silly argument, and I have no idea why it is being made.

Then you may wish to stop "arguing" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) and start having a civil discussion hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The most common group I had at Fungi King was Monk/Enchanter/Shaman and sometimes a Cleric, either a player or a pocket Cleric.

I am not sure what point you believe you are making or what fact you think you are refuting here, and I am not sure why you have brought up that 5th/"pocket" PLAYER or character yet again hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There are plenty of situations where safety is superior to a 2 second increase in kill speed. Camps can be taken if you wipe, so why risk it for 0 gains via DPS?

And if your only healer in a Duo or Trio is a Shaman, you have zero rez available unless you once again move goalposts to allow for a "pocket" Cleric hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]