TMO adds Talendor to the endangered dragon list

[chief]

BLURFEST 2012 i will never forget

[Writ3r]

Rathnir you are out of your element, I responded to something directed at me while not even being involved and this other dude is posting toward a totally different aspect. You young detectives in Taken need to refine your skills as it is obvious you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Jomar]

Originally Posted by Zeelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Their tactics sure haven't changed though. I grabbed Talendor with an eye, yet one of their members stole my pull. Then they brought Talendor onto our camp after they wiped. Glad to have you guys back!

There are two sides to every story, so I'll give you ours on this as well. Here is how it was laid out to me (I was running to Skyfire on Lunah for about 90% of this, since a bogey on my six chromadrac thwarted my in-progress Eye of Tallon Talendor pull on Astizen shortly before):

• Quiggley (Acyrid Druid) and Thunderstruck (VD Wizard) go out to pull Talendor. They get out to around VP entrance, find Talendor, and Thunderstruck pulls him using eye.
• They run back to camp, but repeatedly say Talendor is taking a long time to get there. Quiggley was tracking Talendor behind him until his max tracking length timer hit and he dropped tracking on him. I just say that all the Kunark dragons run fairly slow, and that this is normal so it should be fine.
• After we get a visual on Talendor, it becomes clearly apparent that he is not headed for Thunderstruck, but someone in TMO's camp.
• I ask in vent if Thunderstruck is certain he successfully pulled Talendor eye with, he says says, so I say they are stealing our pull, take it back and engage.
• We engage (this is where I enter camp finally), we hear in vent from Thunderstruck and Tanken that they have been killed by Zeelot (I thought maybe he was charmed, but it turned out they were), and eventually we wipe.

And that's about the end of it. If you have fraps evidence of your eye pull with timestamp, then I suppose you have a case to submit to the support staff, but if not then the only factual evidence we have of who had FTE was, from what I understand, lost when Talendor reset. I wasn't making a stink about it because the only other evidence in my hands had come from your mouth, and the mouth of my guildmate, neither of which is enough to prove either side was right in the eyes of The Queen. So I dropped it until you decided to make this post.

And while I didn't see what happened after we wiped (I was dead obviously), I can assure that we did not attempt train you, but it is more than likely you trained yourselves after you and your guildmates engaged our members that were charmed by Talendor and added yourselves to his aggro list. Anyone that interacted with you, or directly with those that were charmed by Talendor, should have cleared their aggro by either zoning, fd'ing, or camping.

[Teddie1056]

Jomar coming in with the voice of reason.

[Jomar]

I will say that regardless of what truly happened yesterday morning, this is one of the many reasons why the lone true raid rule of "FTE" needs to modified. There have been dozens upon dozens of other encounters before this where a guild thinks they have FTE, only to find out later on that they did not (although you can admit that Eye of Innoruuk does look nice in my offhand [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]).

There are some cases where it's almost impossible to tell who has FTE, and so it just becomes a big awful ball of everyone engaging at once and trying to get XP so that they can get ahold of the items before Amelinda makes a ruling. As we've seen often, the guild that loot the items, regardless of whether or not they had FTE, often winds up getting to keep those items in the end (even if they are awarded to the other guild who actually had FTE as well), which is an incentive in-itself to reward dirty play.

Other cases, like last night, involve gathering whatever information you have and making judgement calls off of it, and whether they turn out to be the correct one or not can oftentimes get lost in the mechanics of the server.

I've said it several time to members of both your guild and my guild that we really should work together to improve the rules of the server so that it ensures a more fair playing field. I'm not talking about eliminating competition, as the opportunity to compete against people who are so knowledgeable about the game is one of the huge draws of this server, just eliminating borderline dirty tactics like:
-one single person tagging a mob as another guild runs in to engage in order to be awarded the loot
-parking a pet on a mob's spawn point and establishing a camp at a spot that provides ample enough time for a guild to mobilize despite that being a tactic very similar to what used to occur at VS (which is no longer allowed)
-or establishing your camp in a location in between yourself and the competition so that the competition has no choice but to "train" you in order to successfully proceed with an encounter.
A lot of this shit needs to go, and I just hope there are enough people who agree so we can try and get them changed.

Rogean is clearly back around now, so I don't see what it would hurt if we tried to develop a set of rules that produce a more clear-cut outcome at the time of kill for raid encounters instead of relying on staff decisions to determine every outcome, and then presented that set of rules to him.

[Lazortag]

Just an idea, but if you aren't sure whether you're on talendor's aggro list or not, just hide. If he cons threateningly then you've aggroed him, if he cons indifferent then you haven't. It's possible you used an eye of zomm but that Talendor's ae killed it, which would not add the eye to his aggro list. I'm not saying this happened or is likely - I wasn't there - but you should probably confirm you have fte if you're pulling a contested mob since an eye of zomm dying does not necessarily mean that it got aggroed.

edit: Also if we had simultaneous repops, guilds would not be simultaneously engaging mobs as often, leading to less FTE disputes and less need for GM intervention. Just saying!

[Teddie1056]

Only problem is that time is crucial. You can't spend it making sure you aren't stepping on anyone's feet. By the time you do, the mob is probably already dead.

[Flunklesnarkin]

simple is better.. been said before .. just zone wide shout.. clear to everybody in zone..

classic no.. removed GM intervention and headaches.. yes

its a tradeoff but I don't think it changes the way the game is played a whole lot.. and it probably makes it easier for guides / GM's to sort stuff out too instead of digging through all the logs.

[Jomar]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just an idea, but if you aren't sure whether you're on talendor's aggro list or not, just hide. If he cons threateningly then you've aggroed him, if he cons indifferent then you haven't. It's possible you used an eye of zomm but that Talendor's ae killed it, which would not add the eye to his aggro list. I'm not saying this happened or is likely - I wasn't there - but you should probably confirm you have fte if you're pulling a contested mob since an eye of zomm dying does not necessarily mean that it got aggroed.

I'm not sure about hide, but I know for those that use invis to conceal themselves, they'll still appear as scowling to outdoor dragons (unless they have threat-or-better RoS faction of course) regardless of whether or not they are on their aggro list since those mobs see through invis. So I don't think this idea would've really worked for determining Thunder's aggro status on this particular mob. (edit: could be wrong on Talendor seeing through invis, hell if I remember. I remember Fay and Gorenaire seeing through invis though.)

And as far as eyes goes, pretty much as soon as it draws aggro from a mob, you're on the aggro list since an eye is just an extension of your character. Doesn't matter if the mob speed bumps your eye first (I think this only happens with green con mobs), it's coming for you in the end. I mean I may be wrong here, but I've tested it quite a bit and I had aggro on me every single time.

(Simulated patch days and zonewide fte shout are good ideas in my book.)

[Danyelle]

Originally Posted by Jomar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not sure about hide, but I know for those that use invis to conceal themselves, they'll still appear as scowling to outdoor dragons (unless they have threat-or-better RoS faction of course) regardless of whether or not they are on their aggro list since those mobs see through invis. So I don't think this idea would've really worked for determining Thunder's aggro status on this particular mob. (edit: could be wrong on Talendor seeing through invis, hell if I remember. I remember Fay and Gorenaire seeing through invis though.)

Remember invis and hide are not the same thing. A mob has to be tagged to 'see' both in completely separate columns in the database. That's not to say these dragons don't see hide, they may very well. And as raid mobs it's a pretty damn good bet they do. Most raid mobs do. I'm simply saying remember the fact see-invis != see-hide.