sk starting points

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I thought you were trying to objectively understand if attack power (ie strength) was worthwhile. Not explain how steamrolling green cons isn’t significantly faster with 20 more strength.

We are trying to determine if 20 STR is giving you a worthwhile DPS increase.

The issue is you are making the assumption that the data from the turtle cannot be used, while providing no evidence to support this claim.

You would need to show that the DPS difference between having 20 STR and not having 20 STR will result in a LARGER DPS difference on tougher mobs. Otherwise, having lower DPS simply means the DPS difference will also shrink, which supports my position.

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I’m not a brilliant mind at this stuff but have Gameparse and a 10 key. I can draw conclusions. Troxx was correct, most small SK’s will be undercapped unless you stack Maniacal Strength before Focus. Likely if geared properly for tanking but without BiS gear 30-40 points. That’s basically CoTP…

You don't need 200+ STR while leveling to be successful. With EC gear you can get 170+ STR https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK pretty easily on an Iksar, and I leveled my SK with that much STR for a long time.

Telling people who are twinking their characters that 20 STR will significantly help them is simply not true, and I have evidence to back it up so far https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=211 . STR is generally the worst primary stat to dump your points into on a melee, due to how easy it is to cap it in various situations, long before full BiS gear.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We are trying to determine if 20 STR is giving you a worthwhile DPS increase.

The issue is you are making the assumption that the data from the turtle cannot be used, while providing no evidence to support this claim.

You would need to show that the DPS difference between having 20 STR and not having 20 STR will result in a LARGER DPS difference on tougher mobs. Otherwise, having lower DPS simply means the DPS difference will also shrink, which supports my position.



You don't need 200+ STR while leveling to be successful. With EC gear you can get 170+ STR https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK pretty easily on an Iksar, and I leveled my SK with that much STR for a long time.

Telling people who are twinking their characters that 20 STR will significantly help them is simply not true, and I have evidence to back it up so far https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=211 . STR is generally the worst primary stat to dump your points into on a melee, due to how easy it is to cap it in various situations, long before full BiS gear.

There is no way to measure a "Worthwhile DPS increase". To some that could be 2 dps, 5 dps, 10 dps, 20 dps, etc. Where do you draw the boundary? It all depends on the user. The best you can do is present information and let people decide what they want to do.

This thread has shown what we have already known about STR for years. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. The advantages of each starting stat are clear and obvious to all. STR is great if you never plan to cap it. If you do end up capping it, that's ok too, your char won't be ruined, you might have just missed out on some extra mana in the end. But if you are trying to make the best magelo possible, then yea, go INT. It does offer some leveling benefits as well, which is why I recommended INT to check most of the boxes, but if you are trying to maximize the leveling process then STR is probably your best move.

Put this to rest already.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is no way to measure a "Worthwhile DPS increase". To some that could be 2 dps, 5 dps, 10 dps, 20 dps, etc. Where do you draw the boundary? It all depends on the user. The best you can do is present information and let people decide what they want to do.

This thread has shown what we have already known about STR for years. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. The advantages of each starting stat are clear and obvious to all. STR is great if you never plan to cap it. If you do end up capping it, that's ok too, your char won't be ruined, you might have just missed out on some extra mana in the end. But if you are trying to make the best magelo possible, then yea, go INT. It does offer some leveling benefits as well, which is why I recommended INT to check most of the boxes, but if you are trying to maximize the leveling process then STR is probably your best move.

Put this to rest already.

Of course everything depends on the user. I am not forcing anybody to do anything. Nor am I saying anybody's character has been ruined.

I am giving people the facts, so they can use them how they wish. So far https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=211 , I have seen a 1.5 DPS increase from 20 STR, which is giving you maybe 2 more kills per hour at lower levels. It's not going to be noticeable for most people.

Nobody is saying STR is a bad stat. I am not either. People seem to be in denial at how easy the stat is to cap. Once a stat is capped from gear, buffs, etc., you get zero benefit from it.

I have soloed for years without max STR. You will do fine without an extra 20 STR. I have been STR capped in groups for years as well with buffs.

INT will basically never be capped on an SK, so putting your points there will give you some benefit for your entire characters life cycle. That makes it the objectively best stat to dump your points into in most scenarios. The exception is a SSF character or your first character on a server. Typically an SSF character is going to be much more difficult to play, and the first character you create on a server is often times your money maker, not a character you plan on min/maxing.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Of course everything depends on the user. I am not forcing anybody to do anything.

I am giving people the facts, so they can use them how they wish. So far https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=211 , I have seen a 1.5 DPS increase from 20 STR, which is giving you maybe 2 more kills per hour at lower levels. It's not going to be noticeable for most people.

Nobody is saying STR is a bad stat. I am not either. People seem to be in denial at how easy the stat is to cap. Once a stat is capped from gear, buffs, etc., you get zero benefit from it.

I have soloed for years without max STR. You will do fine without it. I have been STR capped in groups for years as well with buffs.

INT will basically never be capped on an SK, so putting your points there will give you some benefit for your entire characters life cycle. That makes it the objectively best stat to dump your points into in most scenarios. The exception is a SSF character or your first character on a server. Typically an SSF character is going to be much more difficult to play, and the first character you create on a server is often times your money maker, not a character you plan on min/maxing.

There is no need to consistently say "You'll do fine without STR". We are debating starting stats which are largely irrelevant anyway. You'll do fine without 20 extra INT too. You'll do fine if you cap STR sooner too. Just means you got to enjoy more STR longer than the person who didn't start with STR.

STR is also not super easy to cap without shaman buffs. A lot of people don't want to have a handicap on their strength where they consistently have to rely on buffs to hit max str. Even your decently geared troll SK is not str capped self buffed. This number would be much lower for a DE/erudite.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is no way to measure a "Worthwhile DPS increase". To some that could be 2 dps, 5 dps, 10 dps, 20 dps, etc. Where do you draw the boundary? It all depends on the user. The best you can do is present information and let people decide what they want to do.

This thread has shown what we have already known about STR for years. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. The advantages of each starting stat are clear and obvious to all. STR is great if you never plan to cap it. If you do end up capping it, that's ok too, your char won't be ruined, you might have just missed out on some extra mana in the end. But if you are trying to make the best magelo possible, then yea, go INT. It does offer some leveling benefits as well, which is why I recommended INT to check most of the boxes, but if you are trying to maximize the leveling process then STR is probably your best move.

Put this to rest already.

Yea, this was our conclusion eighty pages ago. Only DSM hasn't gotten with the picture but that's okay as he never will.

As stated, the important caveat is that very, very few people who roll an SK are ever going to get to 60 with BiS raid gear, especially OP who wants to roll an ikky and play around with greenmist.

The leveling benefits of INT are extremely minor. But yea, INT if you're sure you're gonna get to 60 and get some sweet gear.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The leveling benefits of INT are extremely minor

The benefits of STR are also extremely minor, if you agree starting stats are not relevant. This isn't a point in your favor.

OP can get all the STR they need from EC gear.

[Snaggles]

Attack is the only stat that gives you an advantage every time you swing a weapon.
Stamina is max hps
Intel is max mana.

If stamina reduced the rate you lost hps or intel increased your mana regen this would be different. I’m not saying it’s a zero sum game, unless your gear is extremely good most players will benefit from the more common stat picks. There is a case to make for a dex rogue (pre-avatar), charisma warrior, intel sk, charisma or wisdom paladin. These are just more extreme edge case examples. Every melee I’ve ever soloed to 60 (or even past mid 50’s was on a single npc so it’s not a mana limited/throttled situation like quadding.

So when a new player doesn’t define what their end goal is and asks for stat advice I tend to go with the info that favors 90%+ of the players. Unlike a bad WoW build you can’t really “break” a class here. You can’t respec but it’s just not like clinically bad trait picks.

[Snaggles]

Stats matter = they can be measured and do make a literal difference (to a point)
Largely irrelevant = it won’t allow you to do or not do anything.

If a handicap is defined as a statistical disadvantage (or even a carry weight to encumbrance), Crede is correct. If he means the inability to perform a task at all he’s more likely wrong. I 100% understood at the first because he seems to approach this game logically.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Stats matter = they can be measured and do make a literal difference (to a point)
Largely irrelevant = it won’t allow you to do or not do anything.

If a handicap is defined as a statistical disadvantage (or even a carry weight to encumbrance), Crede is correct. If he means the inability to perform a task at all he’s more likely wrong. I 100% understood at the first because he seems to approach this game logically.

If having 80 STR vs. 100 STR is a significant handicap, then starting stats are NOT irrelevant.

You can't have it both ways. I am all for nuance in argument, but this is simply a logical inconsistency.

A nuanced argument would look like this:

"Starting stats are irrelevant for a number of class/race combinations. For example, Troll Shadowknights already have enough STR/STA to be successful, even without starting stats. Therefore, starting stats are irrelevant for Troll Shadowknights.

However, a Gnome Warrior starts with 60 STR. This is a significant handicap, and therefore starting stats are NOT irrelevant for them. You need to put X points into STR as a Gnome Warrior, otherwise you will run in to non-trivial issues".

Factually speaking, even a Gnome Warrior can achieve 150+ Strength with cheap EC gear. This means the nuanced argument example I gave above is not actually true for any player who can twink their Gnome Warrior.

[Snaggles]

Who added the word “significant”? The OP asked about starting stats on an Iksar. I’m pretty sure we all agreed on page 1 it didn’t really matter.

I’m out. You win.