Why do people seem to hate luclin so much?

[Seltius]

You all are starting to lose sight of the point here. It isnt that PoP or even Luclin wasnt fun. It is the fact that they were no longer considered classic content by the people who make the decisions and put all the effort and work into this server. I dont know that I have ever seen Luclin or PoP called classic content before. I know SoV was pushing it but there are at least common threads between SoL and Kunark/Vanilla EQ. That being the original Dev team and locations.

Oh and I did get to raid PoP content and it was amazing. I wish I could go back and play through that expansion again but if the Devs here decide not to add it well at least I am getting to relive Vanilla-SoV to an extent and am grateful.

[pasi]

Daldaen and Secrets hit most of the pro-Luclin points already.

I think that other than zone/NPC graphic schemes, the biggest negative against Luclin is the lack of a traditional camp/PH style dungeon. Luclin has a ton of minimal-use flyover zones, but so do Velious and Kunark. There are a ton of camps in Luclin, but there is really no dungeon with the traditional camp/PH seen in Guk, SolB, Sebilis, Velketors, etc.

The closest thing to this would be Maiden's Eye (which was the most populated exp spot during SoL). Unfortunately, Maiden's Eye was outdoors and most of the good shit was no-drop. Fungus Grove mostly followed a random-drop model, Acrylia was an AE zone, and Umbral Plains was a plane with a few long spawn PHs.

As mentioned above, there was an abundance of camps and ways to make money in Luclin, you just had to be very pro-active and pre-form a group prior to reaching a destination. That 100% does not work with PUGs and imo, contributed heavily to the expansion's reception.

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by pasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Daldaen and Secrets hit most of the pro-Luclin points already.

I think that other than zone/NPC graphic schemes, the biggest negative against Luclin is the lack of a traditional camp/PH style dungeon. Luclin has a ton of minimal-use flyover zones, but so do Velious and Kunark. There are a ton of camps in Luclin, but there is really no dungeon with the traditional camp/PH seen in Guk, SolB, Sebilis, Velketors, etc.

The closest thing to this would be Maiden's Eye (which was the most populated exp spot during SoL). Unfortunately, Maiden's Eye was outdoors and most of the good shit was no-drop. Fungus Grove mostly followed a random-drop model, Acrylia was an AE zone, and Umbral Plains was a plane with a few long spawn PHs.

As mentioned above, there was an abundance of camps and ways to make money in Luclin, you just had to be very pro-active and pre-form a group prior to reaching a destination. That 100% does not work with PUGs and imo, contributed heavily to the expansion's reception.

I don't think you're going to win this argument. There were a lot of PH's in Luclin.

I'd like to explore this some more though to see if there's any merit.

Another argument I saw was the original development team wasn't around for Luclin. Far as I know, that's untrue. Most of hte original team were gone by 2002, but Luclin launched in late 2001, meaning at least some of the originals were still there during development. Now, it's true Verant was reorganized to become SOE in 2001, so perhaps some management changes happened after it was apparent Everquest was a huge success. BUT I haven't seen anything hard to prove that.

I do prefer the original Everquest up to Velious. I just think many of us over-romanticize things like the EC tunnel. Many also don't appreciate how large the world had become and why the Spires helped to actually strengthen the community by keeping it from being too widely dispersed.

I think it's primarily mudflation which ruined the early game. But this happens in all MMORPGs. You can't blame that on SOE or Smedly. It's a systemic problem. Mudflation attempts to cure an ever-inflating power divide between the lower levels and higher levels. That combined with things like too many zones and a decreasing new player population (and outdated tech) ended up butchering the early game.

Many players in WoW are going after classic WoW servers for the exact same reason we go after p1999. But probably 99% of the players are mistaken about who or what's to blame. I've only met a couple who realize much of teh blame is rooted in development habits and mudflation. Most never get that deep and just reside on the surface, assuming it's some crony in management trying to ruin their game.

[pasi]

Originally Posted by stormlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think you're going to win this argument. There were a lot of PH's in Luclin.

I'd like to explore this some more though to see if there's any merit.

There's a lot of PHs, but there is no zone that fits what I'm saying.
Luclin did not have a traditional Guk-style dungeon with groups occupying well-known "camps" with short respawn nameds/PHs that mostly have droppable gear for loot.

I know this sounds specific, but it's really not. It's pretty much the blueprint for EQ's most beloved zones: Guk, Mistmoore, SolA, SolB, Sebilis, Karnors, Velketor's, Bastion of Thunder, etc. This is the case until the Cazic Revamp later on in Luclin. The Chardok revamp in Velious doesn't really count as Luclin, but its the closest thing until the CT revamp.

Just quickly going through Luclin zones and if they fit that model:
Akheva Ruins: No.
Dawnshroud Peaks: No.
Echo Caverns: No.
Fungus Grove: I know what you're thinking, but no.
Grieg's End: I love the original Griegs, but no.
Grimling Forest: No.
Hollowshade Moor: No.
Katta Castellum: No.
Marus Seru: No.
Mons Letalis: No.
Netherbian Lair: No
Paludal Caverns: No.
Sanctus Seru: No.
Shadeweaver's Thicket: No.
Shadow Haven: No.
Shar Vahl: No.
The Bazaar: No.
The Deep: I know what you're thinking, but no.
The Grey: PHs and good droppables, but no.
The Nexus: No
The Scarlet Desert: No.
The Tenebrous Mountains: Vampires castle, but mostly no.
The Twilight Sea: No.
The Umbral Plains: No (Essentially a planar zone w/ long respawn PHs)
Vex Thal: No.

The Maiden's Eye: Close, but not a dungeon and mostly no-drop stuff.

Ssraeshza Temple: Arguably Yes. I would just have to see it being used that way to believe it. There's a couple droppable items worth a buck, but the main reason people grouped there was Comm Rings. I can't imagine convincing a PUG to camp a anything else.

[iruinedyourday]

Originally Posted by pasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Luclin did not have a traditional Guk-style dungeon with groups occupying well-known "camps" with short respawn nameds/PHs that mostly have droppable gear for loot.

I think this is a good litmus test to see if something is classic EQ or not.

*edit* also as of the first expansion the game became more and more 'less classic'. One of the things that I think defines EQ is what pasi says, that I quoted. There was a specific goal to start making the game less like this as early as the Kunark expansion.

The anger the player base had to camp over crowding promoted them to create random drops on mobs you find in kunark. The seb cloak, RBG, sarnak earring, BotH.. all that stuff is designed to reduce the core stuff some of us fans of the very original EQ think, defines EQ. Dungeons being over crowded and players camping static names.

Sure you may not feel that defines EQ becuse you came to your own during luclin.. but all that means is that though you like classic eq, you're nostalgic about something else.

I can tell you I was disappointed with EQ the first time I killed something with a unique name, that didnt drop anything. Something Kunark has in the vast majority over preKunark EQ.

So all I'm saying is if the game started changing as early as kunark, how can you expect fans of the original EQ to agree that an expansion that did something so brazen as to take players off the fucking planet, change all the character models, and add robot merchants for players, to be considered classic?!

[Daldaen]

Ssra was a decent camp zone. Vah Shir illusion, Ring of Shissar components, Summoned Fangs clicky pouch, Voice of the Serpent Clicky, Fast Horses. Not to mention the other 10 named in zone with decent stat items but not clickies.

Beyond that though you're mostly correct, Ssra wasn't quite the size/number of camps as Sebilis but it was pretty decent with several keyed and locked areas with more named. It was size able enough to support several groups. It had a bit less of a "crawl" style setup since it was more open to get from entrance to most camps. It probably had the same number of named/camps as Velketors but the majority of the loot was no drop.

The Deep had a few decent named mobs, but half the zone didn't get used by many because of the fear of death by invis bridge. It's a shame more people didn't do the floating moss rock quest, which was a really neat idea.

Akheva Ruins was just a bad zone outside of the raid content. Acrylia was an AE fest, the inner sanctum was very unique and the trials/events there were cool but very few got to do them before revamp. Griegs was mostly empty but you could spawn named in traps I think, many of which were very interesting drops like bind wound skill modifiers and such. I *think* that's about it as far as high level dungeons go.

I think the No Drop loot thing is worth mentioning also as that tended to be one shift in Velious and later Luclin. A lot of loot started to become no drop, which I think is a good thing. Less farming AC or Rogue Epics or Fungi King for the 100th time to buy an upgrade. Instead you had to go camp or quest the upgrade yourself. But I'm do understand some people aren't a fan of this.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think the No Drop loot thing is worth mentioning also as that tended to be one shift in Velious and later Luclin. A lot of loot started to become no drop, which I think is a good thing. Less farming AC or Rogue Epics or Fungi King for the 100th time to buy an upgrade. Instead you had to go camp or quest the upgrade yourself. But I'm do understand some people aren't a fan of this.

But trading items is classic! If everything is no-drop, how can i tunnelquest and flip items to make enough money so that i can buy a whole set of end-game gear and pay for a PL?

This is why i like classic, it's hard and unforgiving and it forces people to be social and makes the game feel alive. That's why when i solo with my fungi and epic and die at level 22, i send a tell to an epic cleric 6 zones away and ask him to come rez me.

[tristantio]

The rarity of NO DROP gear in EQ is what made it so good and replayable (twinking) IMHO.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by tristantio [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The rarity of NO DROP gear in EQ is what made it so good and replayable (twinking) IMHO.

Also what makes it unique, or classic. Virtually every modern mmo employs no drop equipment. SoL/PoP (cannot recall which) where we first started seeing level restricted gear (outside of procs/effects).

[Erydan Ouragan]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also what makes it unique, or classic. Virtually every modern mmo employs no drop equipment. SoL/PoP (cannot recall which) where we first started seeing level restricted gear (outside of procs/effects).

Velious introduced level restrictions on some items, actually.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Fellspine%27s_Tail

Granted, that's on very few items, but from there, we can make the logical conclusion that Velious was the beginning of the end.