Alter End-Game Mechanics

[HarrisonIsStillPosting]

rofl look at this spin machine loser spending an hour on a post

I was here and raiding long before you were, and I wasn't poopsocking, training, or pulling mobs through walls when I was, either.

You can't make the same claim, no-talent chump.

[Silentone]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you want to be taken seriously, at least try to use something that has traction. You're trying to make a point, but not once have you defended your claim. If you're really trying to appeal to an undecided reader, you would take the time explain yourself. Instead, you just make the same statement over and over. This is not how the reasoning process ordinarily works. If you're not sure where to start, or how your statements have been challenged, I suggest you start here:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...1&postcount=14
http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...7&postcount=46
http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...2&postcount=87
http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...&postcount=147
http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...&postcount=153
http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...&postcount=157
http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...&postcount=163
http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...&postcount=178
http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...&postcount=189
http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...&postcount=218
http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...&postcount=403

To those who are not in the high end scene yet: Don't let Harrison or anyone else bring you down. Many of these posters have not even tried to participate in the high end scene. There are problems, but they're not deal breaking. I think if you try, you'll find the majority of the people there are actually nice.

I think Daldolma has touched upon a good point. Many people think that unrestricted raiding leads to utter monopoly. This is a false conclusion. There are some, but not many barriers to entry for the raiding scene. From an economic stand point, the competing guilds WILL bump heads, but eventually equilibrium and cooperation will be achieved as it is the most efficient outcome for two or more similarly situated competitors.

It's all very Zen.

exactly, what happend when IB and TMO went at it for months on high priority targets(trak, vp) we went on rotation. Any guild if commited can force that same rotation, Good lucky people

[Daldolma]

You can't ban poopsocking. Trak's due to spawn in 45 minutes and all of a sudden TMO wants to start a Fungi king group and a shrooms group and a reets/juggs group, and farm Prot and Tola. Oh, and they've got some friends coming along to help from out of group. Who's to say that's illegal? It's perfectly logical. Those are decent camps and Trak is due soon, so might as well. It's not poopsocking, but it might as well be. Etc, etc.

CT is due in 2 hours. Divinity decides to clear Fear with 35 people. Poopsocking? For all intents and purposes, yes. Enforceable? Of course not. Who's to say they can't farm planar armor?

Etc, etc forever. Almost every zone with a dragon/god has legitimate camps, and most of the time, those camps are exactly what's blocking the way to the dragon/god.

You can't ban poop-socking. You'll have rule lawyers on every single engagement, and enforcement would end up being highly inconsistent. The next best thing is to let the player base combat poop-socking themselves. If you want to sit idly on Trak's spawn waiting for a pop, then I want to bring 25 juggs to Trak ledge right as Trak spawns. Something gives me a feeling people won't just sit idly at ledge after that.

[HarrisonIsStillPosting]

It's easier to forgo the training, exploiting, and poopsocking and just enforce a faggoty rotation. (Rotations are fucking dumb, but it's better than cheating, training, and poopsocking.)

Know how to stop rule lawyers. Ban them. It's very simple.

When I caught people exploiting on my FPS server, I didn't let them rule lawyer their way out of it by saying "the game lets me do it, so it must be legit!" I just banned them.

It's that simple. They are cheating scum and should be dealt with as such, and were. We need GMs like that, but it will never happen. You just get GMs that watch guilds pull mobs through walls for hours and slap them on the wrist with a fuzzy slipper.

[Artah]

Originally Posted by HarrisonIsStillPosting [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's obvious you're incapable of realizing that the only reason TMO is "on top" is because there has never been a GM team with the balls to crack down on the end game and enforce the rules.

It is very clear that the GMs don't want people to poopsock. This is why they put in the variance in the first place. What they didn't expect was that you guys would be SO pathetic that you would quite literally sit on top of a spawnpoint for a week straight to circumvent the variance/rules.

The reason no one is banding together to do the same is because it's not legitimate nor is it even remotely logical to sit on a spawnpoint for days. It's pathetic.

We won't even get into the "let's let them train away, and exploit without repercussions in VP!"(the endgame currently) situation going on currently that has decimated the raid scene entirely.

You aren't talented. You aren't skilled. You just have the largest group of pathetic people under one guild tag willing to exploit, train, and poopsock longer than anyone else.

I am not sure I agree, I once witnessed TMO with about 2 groups kill faydedar and only 1 cleric in the raid with 2 druids and a shaman. I would have to say there was some skill and talent involved there. I also witnessed TMO kill gore with about 35 people and another time heard about 90 non TMO people that kept wiping to gore. The last time I saw TMO poopsock was months ago but I did hear about other guilds "poop socking" Maestro many times recently.

So when you want a rare mob to spawn you pass by it occasionally and hope that it's up or do you sit there for hours killing the PHs until the rare spawns? I say that because that's basically poopsocking in a much smaller scale and the majority of the players on the server is guilty of it. I am not trying to lawyer my way in this discussion but before you bash other guilds please take a look at it from as many angles as possible.

TMO is on top because they are a collection of people that's driven by the burning desire to win and they are not doing anything that other people can't do on the server. I guarantee you there is enough people that's not in TMO that could legitimately bring in the challenge, they just need to come out and present themselves.

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Silentone [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

exactly, what happend when IB and TMO went at it for months on high priority targets(trak, vp) we went on rotation. Any guild if commited can force that same rotation, Good lucky people

Right, that's true. But the problem is that the level of commitment required to force that equilibrium on P99 is not equivalent to the level that was required in classic. Having to track a dozen targets for days on end with no real idea of when they will spawn is not classic. Classic was a clusterf*ck of activity surrounding a few hot hours when a mob was expected to spawn. Think about if, right now, VS's variance was wiped (this is just an example). If everyone on the server knew that VS was spawning at exactly 4:05 PM EST today, there would be 100 people fighting for that spawn. Over the course of multiple mobs and multiple weeks, there would eventually be stalemates. TMO dominates the current system, but in a more classic system, it would not be possible for TMO -- or anyone else -- to dominate this thoroughly. You'd likely still be the #1 guild on the server, but you wouldn't be leaps and bounds above the pack, and there would actually be significant incentive for your guild to split and form two able bodies instead of one.

That's a more classic scenario. In my opinion, it's better for everyone involved -- including TMO. Phat lewtz aside, it's no fun to be on top of the mountain with nobody else in eyesight. You'd all probably be happier to still be #1, but with legitimate competition.

[Zallar]

You should make raid zones FFA PvP.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Originally Posted by HarrisonIsStillPosting [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Know how to stop rule lawyers. Ban them. It's very simple.

When I caught people exploiting on my FPS server, I didn't let them rule lawyer their way out of it by saying "the game lets me do it, so it must be legit!" I just banned them.

It's that simple. They are cheating scum and should be dealt with as such, and were. We need GMs like that, but it will never happen. You just get GMs that watch guilds pull mobs through walls for hours and slap them on the wrist with a fuzzy slipper.

I, for one, am thankful that you do not wield decision making power here. You're telling everyone that you want justice, but your solutions are anything but.

Edit: @ Daldolma: We can't assume that equilibrium would be achieved for every mob at the same time. If IB had said nuts to every mob BUT Trak when he was on rotation, TMO would still have agreed to it. As long as it was efficient for us to rotate in the long term, we'd do it. This is what allows guilds to get their foot in the door. When TMO first started against TR, we raced to a few targets, but we put everything we had into Trak. We moved on from there.

[HarrisonIsStillPosting]

Banning people for breaking rules (such as exploiting, pulling mobs through walls for example) is a rule and consequence for breaking said rule, right on the front page.

I'd only be enforcing what is currently not being enforced. (and never has been through the history of the server to now) So, of course you're thankful that I'm not enforcing the rules that you are constantly breaking. You'd be out of a game to cheat on.

350+ cheaters caught yet never banned anyone?
TMO pulling mobs through walls in VP for hours up to the ledge in picture room?
Holocaust on R99 exploiting Nagafen
Nihilum on R99 exploiting every raid encounter possible

The only repercussion to any of that? Nihilum and Holocaust got their loot removed 5 months after they exploited it multiple times.

That would have never occurred under my watch. And you would never have made it past the first hour of pulling mobs through walls in VP without being banned. None of this is made up. All of it is public knowledge on these forums. The lack of punishment is tarnishing a wonderful project needlessly, when its own rules are right on the front page blatantly disregarded.

[Daldolma]

Yeah, I agree with that. By equilibrium, I don't mean that every mob would result in rotation. At present, TMO might be the only guild even capable of taking down VP dragons. I'm talking about the fear some people have that unregulated raiding will lead to never-ending train wars. I don't think that will be the case at all. Maybe for a few weeks, or maybe if bad blood emerges at some point in time. But in the long run, nobody is going to want to spend 3 hours locked in a train-stalemate with a similarly-capable raid force. Raids will learn to cooperate or rotate, while weaker parties will drop out of competition.