Please check my math on Troll vs Ogre Shaman

[Snaggles]

Snare, FSI on a 75% slowed mob, a few mins of standing +12/tick regen. It’s all pretty worthless.

Arguably the best racial perk is the xp bonus a Barbarian has for a game that demands a cruel number of hours to hit max level.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Snare, FSI on a 75% slowed mob, a few mins of standing +12/tick regen. It’s all pretty worthless.

Arguably the best racial perk is the xp bonus a Barbarian has for a game that demands a cruel number of hours to hit max level.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Iksar

It's +8 Regeneration a tick standing compared to Ogres/Barbarians at level 60, not +12.

I have stated multiple times in this thread no racial is make or break for a Torpor Shaman. The OP was basically asking which racials are superior. At the end of the day, neither matter much, but one IS superior from a mathematical and statistical perspective. We are simply deducing which one is better, for people who care about getting the most out of their character. If you don't then it doesn't matter[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[DMN]

Well, they don't need to be summoning mobs necessarily. Just dangerous spell casters who flee. And living mobs in chardok don't flee? I did chardok a ton back in the day and all the living mobs there should be flee-enabled.

Also the snare duration like I mentioned above seems bugged. You are right that it should be 6 ticks but right now it'snot getting the proper ticks. At least not when I just tested it. And it's 20% for regular snare 15% for clinging darkness snare.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, they don't need to be summoning mobs necessarily. Just dangerous spell casters who flee. And living mobs in chardok don't flee? I did chardok a ton back in the day and all the living mobs there should be flee-enabled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS3uoIHTu_c

The first mob I fought in this video is single, and a living mob. I never rooted him, and he did not flee at 20%. The only thing he will do is gate if he is too far away from his spawn point.

I haven't soloed all the mobs in Chardok yet, so if there is a fleeing mob, that would be great to know. I just haven't seen it yet.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS3uoIHTu_c

The first mob I fought in this video is single, and a living mob. I never rooted him, and he did not flee at 20%. The only thing he will do is gate if he is too far away from his spawn point.

I haven't soloed all the mobs in Chardok yet, so if there is a fleeing mob, that would be great to know. I just haven't seen it yet.

It's possible there are some nearby allies in assist range of him but not in LOS. Course it could also just be not classic heh.

[rabids]

This is what I mean when I say mystique. Min/Max is factual, not personal preference. There is a Shaman race that has the best racial bonuses for the Shaman class mathematically and statistically. I have said multiple times in this thread if fashion quest is your preference, that is perfectly fine. No Shaman race will give you a huge advantage. But that isn't Min/Max, that is personal preference and fashion questing.

My point here isnt that barbarian is the best, it is that play styles are different. Nothing mystical about that.

Why are you talking about fungis? My point wasnt that you could get lots of fungis as a casual, it was that anyone can get money. Killing guards, grouping in where ever and winning randoms, farming gems for armor, etc etc. You say that you know a lot about EQ, you should know that you can get money as a casual. You can also farm torpor with a couple of friends. I have done guardian wurms with 3 people, without torpor.

So torpor shammy isnt the same as raiding shammy. Now if we were talking about best race for a high end raiding shammy with lots of BiS and torpor I might agree that ogre is best. But I thought we were talking about torpor shammies, and there is a lot of different kinds of torpor shammies. Not everyone has maxed out resists, not everyone has a shit ton of hp (making the extra effective hp you have from regen count more) and not everyone has or can get snare spears.

There is a lot of snare quotes I could bring up, but I will just say this. I am stupified that we are discussing whether or not snare is any good. Groups can wipe because they have no snare. Snare is good. You say you know a lot about EQ, you should know that snare is good. Our clicky snare is really bad compared to the good ones, but a crappy snare is still good compared to no snare. I would say the burden of proof lays with the party with the opinion that differs from the majority. I think that the majority of EQ players would agree that snare is good. So I wont spend any more time trying to prove to you that snare is good. It just is. Prove me wrong. Speaking of proof brings me to my next point, one of my main points through this whole discussion.

I also have video proof

I have simply been providing EVIDENCE.

I have shown the factual math, you can't escape it

There are lots of similar quotes I could pull up from this thread. All wrong. You have video examples (IMO cherry picked) and calculations that slightly strengthen your arguments. That is not proof or evidence in itself. If I film myself killing something without healing myself, does that prove that healing isnt important? Of course not. It just prove that I can kill that specific mob without healing. An extreme and absurd example, but that is what you are doing. You have some videos where you dont need snare and you say that torpored shamans have no use of snare. Some vidoes where the troll regen (or the FSI for that matter) makes just about no difference and you say that troll regen doesnt make any real difference.

It is much easier to prove something happening (show a video of something happening) then prove that something wont happen. Or science would have disproven ghosts and religion long ago.

You talk about facts, math, evidence, reality and proof, but as a chemical engineer I can say that it takes a lot more then what you have presented to prove something according to those standards.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why are you talking about fungis? My point wasnt that you could get lots of fungis as a casual, it was that anyone can get money. Killing guards, grouping in where ever and winning randoms, farming gems for armor, etc etc. You say that you know a lot about EQ, you should know that you can get money as a casual. You can also farm torpor with a couple of friends. I have done guardian wurms with 3 people, without torpor.

The reason why I am talking about Fungi's is because of what you said:

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Torpor takes 100k to get. That is a bit more then 2 fungi tunics or a couple of weeks of lucky drops if you are casual.

You literally said it is easy to get some lucky Fungi drops as a casual[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I never claimed farming money is hard. But it is time consuming in most cases, unless you get lucky. So is raiding. If you can spend the time to farm 100k and get to level 60, you can probably find time to raid. Fungi Farming and GWurms usually require hours of time back to back to see results, so if you can play 3+ hours at a time, you can raid. If you are so casual that you can only do guard farming for 1 hour a day forever, then yes, raiding won't be for you.

I never said you can't do GWurms or King without Torpor. I have done both without Torpor as well. But both of those spots can be done with a small number of people. This means if you are grouping with randos, they will pick a Torpor Shaman over you if they had the choice. If you have a farm crew that gets together all the time, that is great! Not a lot of people have that though, especially casuals.

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So torpor shammy isnt the same as raiding shammy.

But I thought we were talking about torpor shammies, and there is a lot of different kinds of torpor shammies.

This is mystique again. All Torpor Shamans operate EXACTLY the same. All players can acquire the proper gear and strategies to do all of the Shaman content possible if they dedicate enough time and platinum. The only thing a Torpor Shaman cannot do is swap racials. You are stuck with whatever racials you get from the start. That is why people debate about which racial is best. It is literally the only thing that is different between Torpor Shamans.

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is a lot of snare quotes I could bring up, but I will just say this. I am stupified that we are discussing whether or not snare is any good.

Where did I ever debate that snare is bad? I said snare isn't very useful for Shaman specific strategies and farm spots. That is different from saying snare is bad. Also, Snare neck is specifically the WORST snare in the game, on top of having a long cast time, so it is an extremely limited snare. Snare is amazing for quadding, for example. Shamans can't quad though, even with all of their snare items. Even if you could find a way to ghetto quad, it wouldn't be as effective as the other Shaman strategies available. Different spells have different benefits for different classes when soloing.

When grouping (3+ people), you will probably have a person who can snare, and do it way better than Snare Neck. This is especially true if an encounter requires a snare. Nobody is expecting a Shaman to break out the snares when building a group, nor should they.

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

here are lots of similar quotes I could pull up from this thread. All wrong. You have video examples (IMO cherry picked) and calculations that slightly strengthen your arguments. That is not proof or evidence in itself. If I film myself killing something without healing myself, does that prove that healing isnt important? Of course not. It just prove that I can kill that specific mob without healing. An extreme and absurd example, but that is what you are doing. You have some videos where you dont need snare and you say that torpored shamans have no use of snare. Some vidoes where the troll regen (or the FSI for that matter) makes just about no difference and you say that troll regen doesnt make any real difference.

It is much easier to prove something happening (show a video of something happening) then prove that something wont happen. Or science would have disproven ghosts and religion long ago.

You talk about facts, math, evidence, reality and proof, but as a chemical engineer I can say that it takes a lot more then what you have presented to prove something according to those standards.

I am a game programmer. I deal with logic and facts, specific to gaming. I am providing evidence for my claims. That is how this works lol. I make a claim, and I provide evidence. If you want to dispute my claim, please provide counter evidence. You do not get to say "Your evidence is insufficient!" without providing any of your own. I am 100% open to being wrong here. But I have yet to see people posting even one scenario where snare would have made a huge difference on a Torpor Shaman. And AGAIN, even if you can show a rare scenario, other Shamans have 3 different options to acquire snare if they want to. Yes, having charges on items is a pain in the ass, but Snare Neck is not giving a Troll an advantage other Shaman races cannot get too. At worst, it is simply preventing you from doing that specific situation as often, without replenishing your charge items first. But Shamans are not new to this. FD ring and Puppet Strings are also items with charges, and they are used in very specific Shaman scenarios.

[rabids]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The reason why I am talking about Fungi's is because of what you said:

You literally said it is easy to get some lucky Fungi drops as a casual[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Read my quote again. There is an "or" there. Meaning that you need two fungis (named because they are a staple of the economy) OR a couple of weeks of lucky drops of other stuff. And I am sure that you understood that even though I was talking about fungis I was discussing whether or not its possible to get 100k while still being casual, not whether or not you can get a fungi as a casual.

Im paraphrasing here but you basically say that if you can get lvl 60 and torpor you can just as well raid in the end game. Im calling bullshit. Actually getting a shaman to lvl 60 is easier then many classes, because we are good soloers and very sought after in groups.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is mystique again. All Torpor Shamans operate EXACTLY the same. All players can acquire the proper gear and strategies to do all of the Shaman content possible if they dedicate enough time and platinum. The only thing a Torpor Shaman cannot do is swap racials. You are stuck with whatever racials you get from the start. That is why people debate about which racial is best. It is literally the only thing that is different between Torpor Shamans.

You are nitpicking at words again. You should know by now that I am talking about different play styles and different gear. That was the whole point in that paragraph you take my quote from. That the needs of a BiS end game raiding shaman is different from a lvl 60 torpored shaman that isnt raiding. Would you say that a shaman with gear for a total of 50k with torpor operates the same as a shaman with all BiS and lots of clickies? I call bullshit again.

If you want to discuss what is best for a shaman at the end of their potential with all BiS and clickies, say so. That is a totally different discussion then just a shaman with torpor. All players CAN aquire what you call "proper" gear and strategies if they have the time (many dont), but not all will or even want to. And add to that they want to do different things with their gear and strategies.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Where did I ever debate that snare is bad? I said snare isn't very useful for Shaman specific strategies and farm spots.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have still yet to find a situation where Snare Neck would have given me some kind of advantage.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So snare is useless for a good portion of mobs Shamans want to kill.

Ok, sorry. You didnt say that snare is bad. You said snare is bad for a shaman with torpor. Nitpicking at words just a bit? Snare is good, even for shammies. Get over it[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Btw, that last quote is also pointing out my previous point. You make yourself judge over what shamans want to kill. That is a big flaw in your argument, as I have said several times. Different play styles needs different things. Not everyone raids, not everyone wants to kill WW dragons and that is ok. Shamans can still do challenging things and want to min-max.

This is starting to get systematic, you focus on a small part of what I write and totally forget my actual point. Sometimes you just dont reply to it at all.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You do not get to say "Your evidence is insufficient!" without providing any of your own.

Why not? This is a serious question; why not? I give you counter arguments and logic. How about answering my actual arguments instead of focusing on small irrelevant details?

To be specific, I would love for you to explain this point that you handily ignored from my last post:

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You have video examples (IMO cherry picked) and calculations that slightly strengthen your arguments. That is not proof or evidence in itself. If I film myself killing something without healing myself, does that prove that healing isnt important? Of course not. It just prove that I can kill that specific mob without healing. An extreme and absurd example, but that is what you are doing. You have some videos where you dont need snare and you say that torpored shamans have no use of snare. Some vidoes where the troll regen (or the FSI for that matter) makes just about no difference and you say that troll regen doesnt make any real difference.

1. Do you think that such a video would prove that healing isnt all that great?
2. Please explain how your videos work as proof and evidence and not just as examples as if I am a child.
3. Please explain how your videos are different then the healing-sucks video I talked about. (That is if you feel that they are different, if not, I would love to hear your arguments about how healing isnt important for torpor shamans.)
4. Also, since Im making a list. I would like to know why I cant claim that your evidence is insufficient based on only arguments and logic. How could you otherwise prove anything in theoretic physics? You speak like you like math. How you can you prove anything in math if arguments and logic isnt enough? Its all a chain of arguments and logic. Again please explain as if Im a child[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Read my quote again. There is an "or" there. Meaning that you need two fungis (named because they are a staple of the economy) OR a couple of weeks of lucky drops of other stuff. And I am sure that you understood that even though I was talking about fungis I was discussing whether or not its possible to get 100k while still being casual, not whether or not you can get a fungi as a casual.

Im paraphrasing here but you basically say that if you can get lvl 60 and torpor you can just as well raid in the end game. Im calling bullshit. Actually getting a shaman to lvl 60 is easier then many classes, because we are good soloers and very sought after in groups.

You keep arguing things I haven't said. I didn't say leveling a Shaman to 60 is hard. I didn't say farming money is hard. I said it is time consuming for most players. That is it, and that is fact. A casual player is not playing 12 hours a day, rushing their class to 60 with a leveling team and expensive leveling tools like https://wiki.project1999.com/White_Dragon_Tooth . It is the same with farming. Unless you get SUPER lucky, a lot of farming time is either wasted (you don't get the item), or low yield (farming consistent but lower yield camps like Hill Giants). It took me over a year to level a Shaman to 60 at "casual play", and years to farm enough cash for both Torpor and Epic. Not everyone gets Fungi Tunics, Torpors, and whatever other drops raining down on them[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I did get some lucky drops that did help with the cash, but they weren't huge. 5k here, 10k there, etc.

Whether you intended it or not, your sentence includes Fungi Tunics. You said "or a couple of weeks of lucky drops if you are casual." You did not exclude Fungi Tunics specifically. This is the internet. I cannot see your face, and a lot of nuance is lost. Please be clear in your language, or prepare to be misinterpreted. Thank you for clearing it up though[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are nitpicking at words again. You should know by now that I am talking about different play styles and different gear. That was the whole point in that paragraph you take my quote from. That the needs of a BiS end game raiding shaman is different from a lvl 60 torpored shaman that isnt raiding. Would you say that a shaman with gear for a total of 50k with torpor operates the same as a shaman with all BiS and lots of clickies? I call bullshit again.

You are contradicting yourself here. You seem to think it is easy to get Torpor, but difficult to buy most Shaman clickies, and enough resistance gear to get the job done. If it isn't too hard for a casual to farm 100k for Torpor, it isn't too hard for a casual to farm another 100k for clickies and resist gear. You don't get to have it both ways[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] A Torpor Shaman, even non-raid geared, can do most if not all Shaman solo/duo content. Raid gear makes things easier for a Shaman, but it isn't a requirement for most content. Maybe a super hard solo challenge, but those are usually for bragging rights, as opposed to efficient farming.

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you want to discuss what is best for a shaman at the end of their potential with all BiS and clickies, say so. That is a totally different discussion then just a shaman with torpor. All players CAN aquire what you call "proper" gear and strategies if they have the time (many dont), but not all will or even want to. And add to that they want to do different things with their gear and strategies.

The definition of Min/Max is being at the end of your potential. That is what we have been discussing in this thread the entire time. Which racial is best for a Shaman. That assumes Min/Max. This thread has never been about which Shaman build works best for a very specific user. That is basically what you have been talking about, which is off topic. As far as I am aware, the OP's intent for this thread was not to discuss some very specific use case a very specific user has. This is a Min/Max question for best racials.

I could easily argue an Iksar is the best race for Shaman, if a specific user's primary intent for their Shaman is crafting. Foraging would help WAY more than any other racial a Shaman gets in this case. That has nothing to do with OP's question, or the spirit of this thread.

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You make yourself judge over what shamans want to kill.

I did not. I am showing common camps and zones that Shamans like to do. I did not make up these camps, other Shamans did. I only have so many hours in the day. I cannot create a video on every single thing a Shaman can possibly do. I have shown you a strategy on how to do ALL West Waste Dragons without any kind of snare. I have show you how to do MANY Chardok spawns without and kind of snare. I have show you how to do Cliff Golems without any kind of snare. You can do the math on Troll Regen with all those videos and see what a Troll would have gotten regen-wise. I have also shown the best potential FSI could give you in a specific, common Shaman encounter. I have covered quite a bit, but you think it is cherry picking because I can't record everything in Everquest in one weekend[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] That is a silly argument. If you have an example you can show with snare being awesome, lets see it!

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why not? This is a serious question; why not? I give you counter arguments and logic. How about answering my actual arguments instead of focusing on small irrelevant details?

To be specific, I would love for you to explain this point that you handily ignored from my last post:

1. Do you think that such a video would prove that healing isnt all that great?
2. Please explain how your videos work as proof and evidence and not just as examples as if I am a child.
3. Please explain how your videos are different then the healing-sucks video I talked about. (That is if you feel that they are different, if not, I would love to hear your arguments about how healing isnt important for torpor shamans.)
4. Also, since Im making a list. I would like to know why I cant claim that your evidence is insufficient based on only arguments and logic. How could you otherwise prove anything in theoretic physics? You speak like you like math. How you can you prove anything in math if arguments and logic isnt enough? Its all a chain of arguments and logic. Again please explain as if Im a child[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You made a lot of points. I will try to upack them.

1. Your healing example is irrelevant. No one is arguing anything close to this. You are using a false equivalency to try and compare 8 HP Regeneration Per Tick to... healing spells? That is a silly argument, and should be self evident. I am using healing spells heavily in every video lol.

2. The problem is you think the videos I showed are cherry picked, super specific examples. You are wrong. As I said before, the strategies I showed you can be employed in a number of encounters, in a number of zones, besides the ones shown. None of these strategies include snare, or needed Troll Regeneration. I shouldn't have to film killing every mob in Everquest for you to understand that you can use these strategies in multiple situations, in multiple zones, all without snare.

3. Please see point 1. False equivalencies are irrelevant.

4. Everquest is not Theoretical physics. You can document how the game works very effectively. The only thing I can't say with 100% certainty is how often FSI blocks a stun. I would need access to the programming logic to determine that. But I can give you the best potential outcome for FSI, compared to the best potential outcome of Troll Regeneration and Snare. That is what I am doing.

If it is SO easy to prove how much better Trolls are, just make some videos yourself, so we can discuss it. I would love to see your crazy Troll shenanigans!

[Bardp1999]

Originally Posted by kjs86z [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have a barb shaman and I look far better than any ogre or troll.

Does anything else matter?

no - you are playing correctly