Pantheon kickstarter

[Grozmok]

Without that challenge you lose the group centric sense of accomplishment that you get in EverQuest and other games (to some degree).

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by Grozmok [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Without that challenge you lose the group centric sense of accomplishment that you get in EverQuest and other games (to some degree).

I'm thinking of Diablo 2 Hardcore mode right now. If you died it was permanent. There were various stages in the game where you'd be caught inbetween crowds of monsters and it was split second choices that could save you or kill you. It was a good challenge, but the problem is the perma-death mechanic encouraged you to stay in lower level zones to squeeze every drop of experience from it before going to the harder zones. As a consequence, it became more like a grind. Inevitably, I still died anyway too, mostly to random critical hits or misjudging the number and severity of enemies. Once or twice I died because of a lag spike. My highest level was a 47 paladin. I don't regret it, since dying and losing everything permanently is never going to be an easy thing, unless all the value of those things is removed or replaced over time.

What I'm saying here is I'm not convinced PUNISHMENT is necessary to give a game challenge. It might be necessary to hook adrenaline junkies, but challenge is another beast. A challenge is like trying to get a good score - for yourself - in golf. Punishment is like having to restart ALL holes everytime you fail to get a hole-in-one. The key to take away is golf and other games are fun not because of any punishment (unless you're hooked on adrenaline) but because of the process of learning the game and getting better with time. Few humans if any would learn to walk if they had their legs cut off if they failed their first attempt.

I think repetition and punishment can be ways to divide players and to allow for some to rise above others, but this normally applies to competitive games and only the most mediocre. Lets face it, some players are better able to tolerate repetition or punishment and thus better able to rise up and over others. This is as opposed to making better choices which is hte preferred method to divide players, so some can rise above others. I think developers of games turn to tactics like using repetition or punishment because it's cheaper to produce. Producing gameplay which urges players to make intelligent decisions requires more effort.

I think challenge increases the sense of accomplishment for both soloing and grouping. I think what you said has to do with the synergy between group members being better and more rewarding if it's a challenge.

I think a challenge is also somewhat subjective. If I was playing golf a challenge for me would be making an inferior score. Tiger Woods would cast scorn. Either way, I rise up in the ranks as I improve.

Sometimes I wonder if people take up challenges they tend to be better at. For example, I remember enjoying the hell out of nintendo games when I was growing up. My sister, on the other hand, died repeatedly and didn't enjoy them as much. Thing is, I died a lot too, but I had better reflexes than her. The difficulty curve for me was not as extreme as it was for her because of my better ability to play the game.

Why do I enjoy tactical games more than story games? Like I can enjoy the hell out of combat and figuring out ways to winning, but slogging through a story or scene is much more boring to me. Maybe this is because I don't follow a story as well or don't get attached as much emotionally to hte characters. I've always thought of myself as sensitive, but I've rarely connected with others on a deep emotional level.

So how do you make a game please to everyone if challenge is somewhat subjective and different players have different aptitudes and thus different players respond differently to the same challenge?

May I ask what your post was in response to?

[nndiro]

Originally Posted by stormlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What I'm saying here is I'm not convinced PUNISHMENT is necessary to give a game challenge. It might be necessary to hook adrenaline junkies, but challenge is another beast. A challenge is like trying to get a good score - for yourself - in golf. Punishment is like having to restart ALL holes everytime you fail to get a hole-in-one. The key to take away is golf and other games are fun not because of any punishment (unless you're hooked on adrenaline) but because of the process of learning the game and getting better with time. Few humans if any would learn to walk if they had their legs cut off if they failed their first attempt.

so instead of punishment...rewards? like a bonus xp % for every level you don't die?

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by nndiro [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

so instead of punishment...rewards? like a bonus xp % for every level you don't die?

If you miss a putt in golf then your score isn't as good. If you're in a competition it can hurt because you may not get in the top 3 or whatever. If you're just playing alone or with a buddy, a lower score is just the loss of some bragging rights. If you're alone it's mostly just the time lost finding the missed balls.

Competitively, what we're talking about is a lower score. BUT this score should be more individual or be graded on a curve. My score should not be compared to Tiger Woods because I can't hit the ball straight, like ever. I'd have no fun if Tiger was my opponent. Competition is fun if it's reasonably fair.

If I'm playing alone then I'm limited by how many balls I have. If I miss I have to go get that ball. The more I'm actually swinging and playing the game the better I'm feeling. If I have to run too far to get my balls or if I lose too many then it starts to become too much hassle. Yes, I'm trying to get a good score, but missing doesn't affect me as much because I'm not playing competitively against someone else.

Soo.... WTF am I saying?

1 If I'm a competition and die then my (relative to my skill level) score is lower
2 If I'm not in a competition and die then it's just the time consumption itself which can hurt me

So punishment combined with competition can make a loss more painful.

Am I being punished if I have to run down a golf ball that missed or if I throw the ball out of bounds during a basketball game and the refs have to set up an inbound play to get the game going again? See, when we miss there's always the potential for some time consumption, but determining when that becomes punishment is just something you have to find out by asking the players and judging the majority vote.

I don't think there's a way to get rid of negative feelings when we lose or miss or fail or die or similar. The important thing is to not kick someone when they're down or to make it any worse. People who're having a string of losses actually need some encouragement if the start to not believe in themselves. So if you're going to help someone, target those people who're not doing well on a consistent basis.

[Rec]

First race is real fat ogres

take that eq next

[Grozmok]

Originally Posted by Rec [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

First race is real fat ogres

take that eq next

Huh?

[Rec]

Originally Posted by Grozmok [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Huh?

EQ next ogres are not blubbery fat bodies. In other words not the real ogres

[Sirken]

Originally Posted by Ceythos [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hey gang,
I'm Ceythos, one of the designers on Pantheon. I just wanted to drop in and say hello and thank you everyone for the discussion and support so far!
-Ceythos

no sir, a big THANK YOU to all you guys, we're all here cheering you guys on and wishing you the very best on Pantheon. it means a lot to gamers when devs take the time to reach out to different communities to engage their fans.

<3

[Derubael]

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

no sir, a big THANK YOU to all you guys, we're all here cheering you guys on and wishing you the very best on Pantheon. it means a lot to gamers when devs take the time to reach out to different communities to engage their fans.

<3

this x1000

Thanks for dropping in on our little corner of the internet! I think the whole staff is kind of in awe that you are even posting here, or that we're even being mentioned in any capacity by the people who are making these great games. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It makes us all feel warm and fuzzy inside that anyone in the current MMO industry even knows we are here. Wishing you guys tons of luck and good fortunes.

Also, please implement Iksars regardless of kickstarter funding. They are the master race, after all [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

~Deru

[Pringles]

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

no sir, a big THANK YOU to all you guys, we're all here cheering you guys on and wishing you the very best on Pantheon. it means a lot to gamers when devs take the time to reach out to different communities to engage their fans.

<3

Damn... I R blind. I guess thats what I get for not reading the whole thread.

Thanks for posting Ceythos!