Raid Changes

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Trimm [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll post once and then Divinity is staying out of this.

We have 3 options for raid bosses:

A.) 7 day static spawn to the minute (i.e. Vox spawns next Thursday at 7:03pm)
B.) 7 day variant spawn +/- 48 hours (i.e. Vox spawns sometime in the next 120 hours)
C.) Rotation. (Fish Bait gets Vox)

Option C is off the table. There are too many guilds who can kill raid bosses if given the chance, and there is not enough end-game content to spread around to everyone evenly. Option A encourages spawn camping more than anything. First guild to have 15 people sitting at a staging area 24 hours before the known spawn time wins.

I completely agree with option C being off the table.
Option a doesnt encourage camping more than option B does. and if by god, a guild wants to camp a dragon for 7 days, i bow down to you.

That leaves option B. Between now and the next 120 hours, a boss will spawn. This option gives all guilds the same chance to track, mobilize and kill said spawn. If individuals want to camp a tracker in the zone for 5 days straight, so be it. We all have that option available to us.

If we're circling around to camping for 5 days straight, what is the whole purpose of the new system? camping is virtually the same in classical rules. and yes, we would all still have that option available.

You're argument against a spawn variance is very, very weak. If someone is so inclined to hack in order to gain an advantage on raid bosses, a few threads on the forums aren't going to stop them. It is up to the guilds to police their own members, and the devs to do what they can to track and detect hackers. If there was one member of my guild who constantly was alerting us that a boss was going to spawn, I'd have to question him. That said, with this thread you are accusing IB, Divinity, Fish Bait, In Virtue, Gothic Circle, Europa, and every other guild of hacking. Not only did you accuse us of this, you linked a site for a hacking program so anyone temped to use such programs knows right where to go. Stupid idea.

It is up to the guilds and GM to police members, but if we get down to it, honesty will not always prevail. and im not accusing Fish bait, IB divinity, in virtue, gothic circle, europa, and every other guild of hacking, im saying there is the POSSIBILITY, and i would much rather rid of that possibility. your just interpreting it in your own manner.
I linked a site for a hacking program? i dont know of any.

You want to know where Divinity stands, and I think I speak for my whole guild when I say we support the spawn variance. It may not be the 100% perfect solution, but it's the best of the above 3 options.[/QUOTE]

If variance is what you guys support, i appreciate the feedback. Thank you Divinity.

Mythoxxus

[karsten]

QQ on this thread: |----------------------X--|


pewpew on this thread: |--X----------------------|

become a better guild and stop blaming others for your own shortcomings. You've gotten your ass handed to you on this thread by GMs as well as other guilds, and instead of going back and saying "ok guys we need to work better as a unit, let's practice this and this" you continue to whine.

Our guild decided a long time ago that we were going to grind you whiney assholes into the ground, and already most of your douchebaggy leadership has done the whole "i'm gonna play another game i never liked that one anyways" thing. You should too.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by karsten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

QQ on this thread: |----------------------X--|


pewpew on this thread: |--X----------------------|

become a better guild and stop blaming others for your own shortcomings. You've gotten your ass handed to you on this thread by GMs as well as other guilds, and instead of going back and saying "ok guys we need to work better as a unit, let's practice this and this" you continue to whine.

Our guild decided a long time ago that we were going to grind you whiney assholes into the ground, and already most of your douchebaggy leadership has done the whole "i'm gonna play another game i never liked that one anyways" thing. You should too.

Sounds familiar Karsten. what happened to VZ/TZ?

[Dukat]

Originally Posted by Trimm [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That said, with this thread you are accusing IB, Divinity, Fish Bait, In Virtue, Gothic Circle, Europa, and every other guild of hacking. Not only did you accuse us of this, you linked a site for a hacking program so anyone temped to use such programs knows right where to go. Stupid idea.

I have never run a hacking program so my knowledge of them is purely secondhand. I had heard some pretty crazy accounts from users of these programs so admittedly my suspicions were very high. If Rogean is pretty sure they can't read the time on boss mobs, then I actually feel very relieved about the current system. It might not be for everyone but I for one will wake up in the middle of the night to chase a spawn. But it does favor hardcore guilds and more casual guilds will probably never see boss loot. That's fine.

And no, I haven't accused all those guilds of hacking, any more than I accuse Trans of hacking. I was stating the possibility and trying to elicit a GM response. Thank you for setting me straight Rogean.

[Bakaris]

Every guild should have a PR guy like Trimm here. Makes Divinity look much better than the rest of the guild, where every member is spewing one bad thing out after the other.

[Wenai]

I only read up to like page 6 honestly. Some pretty funny stuff in here.

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah Nizzarr came up with it, I know that. I snapped at him hella hard over that. If you remember, I had several OTHER ideas.

The fact that Nizzarr wrote the framework for the current system has NOTHING to do with the fact that NILBOG implemented it. Moron.

KS is a SERVER rule. The only SERVER rule that covered the Nagafen situation that night. That you're implying it's somehow my rule is cute. You're cute.

Not implying GM favoritism dude. Not implying anything. I threw my hands up in the air as to the "why" of that (and many other) situations a long time ago.

Funny story. What happened was I saw Divinity working their way up ladder and knew we would have problems with the rotation shortly. So I began taking the infrastructure of Nizzarr's post (as it was the best suggestion that we had gotten) and started working on the system. I asked Zyrek and Xzerion for their input and asked them to work closely with me since they were both active raiding members of two opposing guilds. I figured they would have some input as to what was important to their guilds. After the system was written up I brought it to Nilbog and we worked through it and tinkered with it. It then went to a proposal on January 13, 2010 for approval from the entire staff. We had some argument about certain aspects but in reality everyone had a part in making the system and trying to make it as fair as possible and I think the spawn variance is doing pretty good. Aside from people trying to twist the rules and such.

The spawn variance wasn't added until February 5, 2010, so there was discussion on the matter. Daydrem didn't make a post regarding the rotation on the main forums until January 30, 2010. I was hoping to have the system in place before it became an issue.

From past discussions on the forums it seemed like people wanted both fairness and competition and the GM staff wants a system where we don't have to babysit. Aside from a few situations, we haven't had to do much of that so it seems like a success thus far.

Originally Posted by Taluvill [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

IB and you guys Whined and cried because we could camp a mob for a long time. Big whoop. So you almost trained/killed us/KS'ed us because you guys decided the rules didn't apply to you. I specifically remember Wenai saying that. They changed to a rotation because you guys were going overboard.

I stand by those comments. Basically how the server had worked from day one was that if someone was there before you, then you had to respect their space and let them have their shot. After Transcendence began taking the system to the extreme, IB threatened to KS and impose on your "camp." I still feel that they decided that the rules didn't apply to them but in a discussion with Otto at one point or another (unfortunately I don't have any logs) he had said they were basically trying to force our hands.

Bring back regular spawns with set camping rules (IE: Must have 20 Present at the encounter to claim it. You then move out to a pull spot when your about 30 minutes from the pop, buff and get ready, it pops, it dies)

What is stopping you from camping the raid target you desire? Did you even read the raid system rules?

Originally Posted by Spawn Variance Q&A

Q: Can we continue to camp the raid mobs?
A: Certainly. If you want to have fifteen of your guild members sitting at every spawn site (six mobs to be precise) for 96 hours straight anticipating a spawn with the ability to mobilize not only those fifteen people but as well as any other required members to kill your intended target, all within the 30 minute time frame. By all means go ahead. I am sure after a few failed sessions due to not being able to mobilize quick enough, people won`t be willing to sit there for 4 days straight for months on end.

If you guys want Nagafen for example. Go to Fire Giants, sit there for days 5-9 and you will get the first shot at it. The rules are still there to allow you to camp what you want.

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The GM ruled in Transcendence's favor, for WHATEVER REASON, but that does NOT FUCKING IMPLY that the rules were like that in the first place. You fucking moron.

We ruled in the server's favor. Probably 70+% of the server doesn't give a shit about your guys' feuding. Most of your guilds probably don't give a shit about your feuding. It is the same 10-15 people week in week out bitching and ranting all the time. The thing is that your average P1999 player doesn't give a shit about these situations and it certainly doesn't help to attract new players when threads like these pop up.

It was only after THAT incident, and not any whining from IB, that the decision to implement the rotation was made public.

We were hoping you guys would work something out on your own. Aeolwind and I had both talked to Allizia/Otto trying to encourage them to work something out. Neither wanted to do it so we did what we had to do.

2 things:
a.) The "old way" (old system would be a misnomer) WAS THE PROBLEM. It required GM involvement every time. You guys were given Nagafen on a ONE TIME basis in respect for your time spent (or whatEVER), there was never "camping" allowed on raid mobs, and no amount of QQ will ever make that true.
b.) The GM's (Aeolwind and Wenai) stated then that the rotation was a temporary solution, sticking a finger in the dike (^^), to end the need for GM intervention. This rule was NOT IMPLEMENTED because of any amount of bitching, no matter how romantic that sounds in your novel.

Yep. I had stressed from the very beginning that it was temporary. I had stressed MULTIPLE times that I encouraged people to come up with an alternative solution. The funny myth is that it was me who came up with the rotation and forced it on everyone etc etc. The truth is that both Zyrek and Xzerion expressed their concern on the growing situation. Everyone discussed it together and decided for the time being that it was the best temporary solution.

Originally Posted by Maximus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No one is saying you GMs are popping off any commands in anyones advantage, and believe me i am very grateful for the work you guys have put into the server, as i still enjoy it daily.
But, if you guys are wanting to promote Fairness and Competition, there are better ways and more classicly oriented ways to promote those things.

Mythoxxus

I don't see how it is unfair. A creature can spawn any time in a 5 to 9 day span. No one knows when they are going to spawn (including GMs because we don't care enough to check). Everyone has a fair shot to get to a creature first. I am sure everyone knows when every raid target dies. It is called choosing your battles. If you know that creature X died more than 7 days ago. Maybe you should try really hard to keep everyone near that area. Maybe you should raid that plane every evening and hope for a spawn while you are there. It is a matter of just having better planning really.

I don't know how the guilds are operating under the variance. But if every guild just has a bunch of trackers in every zone and as soon as something spawns everyone just rushes to assemble then there are going to be people getting left out a lot. The best thing to do would be to just raid the plane with the target you want. Whether it is Draco, CT, Inny... whatever. Just plan better.

[Otto]

Originally Posted by Wenai [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I stand by those comments. Basically how the server had worked from day one was that if someone was there before you, then you had to respect their space and let them have their shot. After Transcendence began taking the system to the extreme, IB threatened to KS and impose on your "camp." I still feel that they decided that the rules didn't apply to them but in a discussion with Otto at one point or another (unfortunately I don't have any logs) he had said they were basically trying to force our hands.

Once again this ridiculous claim has arisen.

When Allizia and I were asked to come to an agreement on rules, one was NEVER come to. We could not agree on what to do because the GMs would not allow us to try the first to engage classic ruleset. For some reason in Wenai's mind, one that I'll never understand, the act of sitting near the spawn point of a raid mob entitles you to a free shot at said raid mob. This is not how it was on my server, nor many of my fellow guild member's servers. However, since we had been asked to try to make some of our own rules we came up with an idea of what we would follow, and we said we would try it out. After two-three weeks of trying it, my guild and I agreed that it was absurd and anything short of a classic raid scene is just stupid. Then, Five days before the next raid target would spawn, I contacted Allizia and informed him that we were going to try the classic raid style. He did not protest. At least, not to me.

As we found out 5 days later during that infamous naggy raid, the GMs had gotten wind of us deciding to try the new raid system and stopped it before it could happen. It was then that the server's rotation system was implemented.

As far as me trying to force your hands, of course I did that. It was time for there to be either a classic, no holds barred raid environment, or for the GMs to make their call and force their views on what raiding should be like. Having a GM Enforced raid system is ridiculous. I said that at the beginning, I'm still saying that now over a month after the rotation was lifted, and I will continue to say and think it until it is gone (which we all know it won't be, so I'll just stay disgruntled about that because this server is too good to pass up over that one issue).

Once again, it comes down to the fact that we wanted a competitive, classic environment from the beginning, and other people either didn't want that or had a different (read: wrong) view of that.

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[Taluvill]

Deano, I was 46 when rotation started... Yep.

[Deanob]

I find it personally offensive when Im being called a hacker by Dukat when I spent countless of sleepless hours camping raid targets for my guild.

Dukat, your a piece of shit in my books man.

[Hasbinbad]

Thank you <Transcendence>, for continuing the QQ.
This was an awesome way to wake up!!
I'm roffling soooo fucking hard!
GTG for a bit, I'll be back later.
Also, great post Wrei!