System rotation target ? - Page 21

Skope · #**201** 06-01-2011, 03:39 PM

Don't forget the bumgardener fiasco, who somehow tried to convince the server that he wasn't there when the rules were set and thus didn't have to abide by them. Drama flourishes and shit will hit the fan regardless of whether it's a 4 day window or not. The dojorn case being a prime example (and keeper of souls, as well). it ultimately worked itself out. Both with rule adjustments and player involvement. Both of these mobs are spawns that were not on a variance. Initially caused problems, sure, but they've been worked out.

When FTE hit the GMs/guides knew full well that there would be shitstorms in the near future, and they were there and hovering for the following 2-3 weeks. The argument that minimizing or removing variance will cause shitstorms is the same one we saw during poopsock > FTE.

Humwawa · #**202** 06-01-2011, 03:45 PM

You've yet to say what's wrong with it, to begin with.

No, it's not classic. A lot of things aren't. With the way the raid scene is, it helps more than hurts.

Aadill · #**203** 06-01-2011, 03:49 PM

Actually KoS was worked out with a previous rule already stated by the GMs (triggered mobs). Dojorn only worked if players made agreements to make a rotation.

The lack of shitstorms that happened that were predicted with the loss of the poopsocking rules was due to the fact that variance stayed in and therefore still played a part in who was able to race to a mob and engage it first. It had very little to do with two guilds forcibly fighting over a spawn that they would know would happen at an exact point in time ala Dojorn.

snwbrdr642: griefing isn't allowed on this server and as such is petitionable. Sometimes it causes loot to change hands but most of the time it isn't provable.

Skope · #**204** 06-01-2011, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Humwawa [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You've yet to say what's wrong with it, to begin with.

No, it's not classic. A lot of things aren't. With the way the raid scene is, it helps more than hurts.

Sort of like how you're claiming that it helps more than it hurts. Is that a good answer? Actually, i've gone through each of these in my previous posts. So here's a summary because you seem to have forgotten and/or lazy.

1 - You can't keep variance the way it is and maintain the classic spirit of raiding through velious. These two quite simply can't coexist with the current windows and rule set unless you're willing to concede that certain encounters, and more importantly the spirit of encounters, will be far different from classic and to be frank, a lot worse.

2 - It's not classic. This mantra dictates how this server works and why it was founded. The burden of proof isn't on those who wish to see a change > classic, but rather those who defend what's not classic. Defending boxing is far harder than defending variance. This server has a relatively low pop. in comparison to the old live servers so encouraging grouping is a priority. Now go ahead and defend SEQ.

3 - There should be no need for the GMs to babysit, invisible hand or not. Currently variance is the invisible hand that babysits by limiting which guilds can or can't compete in order to minimize GM intervention, much like poopsocking. During poopsock there was the argument that "you can poopsock too." Sure... but why the hell should I when it's clearly broken? People wouldn't admit it was broken until the forums were filled with complains and finally people caved in and things were changed. Looking back, no one in their right mind would think it was a good idea. These problems, though created by shitty raid rules, can be sorted out via raid rules and server rules instead of using variance as a p99-created limiting factor.

4 - What it's done is sprung this notion that wasting time tracking for 4 days and mobilizing for 15 minutes somehow = skill and success. This was never the case on live (or here, if you can remember back far enough) and this was created here and only here due to poopsock. Poopsock is gone and thus there should be no need for the massive windows. Big guilds who recruit more members that can replace those that leave are more successful. On live this quite simply wasn't true. Different people on different servers may or may not agree with this, but the reality here is that this is propagated by variance and smaller guilds have absolutely no shot.

5 - The spirit of raiding. On EQ live you didn't need to stay at your comp 24/7 and wait 4 days to be successful and enjoy high end content. That's something that we created here and it's being furthered by variance. It changes the way people approach the game and it's unhealthy. EQ isn't a job, and if you were smart you would plan your week accordingly. Here you have no such option.

The last one is a biggie... If a noobie comes here to experience classic EQ raiding he's come to the wrong place. Not because of the mass of raiders, but because the rules are currently picking out who can and who can't make it; the same rules which had nothing at all to do with why that person came here in the first place.

You can still have guilds who are better and who are worse. you will have players who are ostracized and those who are looked to for advice. you'll have guilds who can finish and claim raid bosses like they did on live, the only difference is the GMs shouldn't be helping to make these decisions. You can still run a server that minimizes poo-throwing and a relatively hands off approach. With variance i feel like it's a "hands off" approach, but only so far as the players are always within arms reach.

almost forgot...
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Messianic · #**205** 06-01-2011, 04:14 PM

I was kind of skeptical, but Skope is pretty much owning the thread.

Shiftin · #**206** 06-01-2011, 04:22 PM

He's not doing a dang thing until he outlines the magical set of rules he's going to propose that somehow allow disallow poopsocking, allow first to engage, and won't result in a massive GM timesink, but his entire solution hinges on something that he only wants to share with certain people.

Skope · #**207** 06-01-2011, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiftin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

He's not doing a dang thing until he outlines the magical set of rules he's going to propose that somehow allow disallow poopsocking, allow first to engage, and won't result in a massive GM timesink, but his entire solution hinges on something that he only wants to share with certain people.

yet you haven't PMed me. I'll go ahead and assume you don't care. Funny thing, though, nobody actually has.

The point of my outline and posts is to provide the reasons why it's so fucking screwed. Now you're looking for a magic bullet that i can provide. Whatever I say will ultimately be debated back n' forth with idiots agreeing and disagreeing, and reasonable people making points against and for. But whatever i say doesn't mean jack shit until rogean/nilbog read and/or decide. This includes my opinion and yours. unfortunately for you, only one of us is fucking coherent.

Now go ahead and ask me why i didn't propose anything on these forums? want the answer? because you clearly didn't give a shit what I had to say until now.

Shiftin · #**208** 06-01-2011, 04:29 PM

I haven't PMd you because i'm not going to jump through hoops to hear your idea. Get it out in the light of day and there are more than a few reasonable people here who want to talk about it, in a group setting like this. Maybe we can refine it and improve it or point out things you didn't think about?

Humwawa · #**209** 06-01-2011, 04:30 PM

1 - It changes very little about Kunark, and changes the "Crawl" raid encounters only a little. I think in your case, the word "spirit" is synonymous with "nostalgia," which, while a major power behind this server, is also a poisoned concept - nostalgia often clouds the reality of the past. It also allows hindsight, and all the innocence of the past is absolutely obliterated by experience. ToV will be a nightmare without one of two things - guild cooperation and coordination, or variance. Given the nature of people, I sincerely doubt the former can ever happen. If you want to be our Martin Luther King Jr. and unite us, do that.

2 - It's not classic. Neither is the need for IP exemptions. There *are* in fact people who feel very strongly about being able to multibox, and they should be able to, shouldn't they? I'm sure plenty of players never even thought to multibox in Classic, and had they known that it was even possible, more would have tried it in the Kunark era. They'd be considerate of each other, surely - all it takes is a consensus between the multiboxers, politeness, and courtesy and we'd never see things like a six man group at Fungi King run by the same guy for 48 hours straight. Right?

3 - There should be no need for the GMs to babysit, invisible hand or not. I can't argue with this. Nevertheless, it happened in Classic on multiple servers.

4 - Quick mobilization is absolutely foremost in EverQuest raiding. A competent crew capable of it is the full picture.

5 - The spirit of raiding is nostalgia, corrupted by hindsight.

The last one is a biggie... If a noobie comes here to experience classic EQ raiding he's come to the wrong place, unless he applies to a guild.

Almost forgot!

If you want to be the guy who forms a cordial consensus between the major raiding guilds on the server, I strongly suggest dispensing with the passive aggressive victim stigma you seem to project. I had no interest in trolling you. I don't agree with you. =)

Skope · #**210** 06-01-2011, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiftin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I haven't PMd you because i'm not going to jump through hoops to hear your idea. Get it out in the light of day and there are more than a few reasonable people here who want to talk about it, in a group setting like this. Maybe we can refine it and improve it or point out things you didn't think about?

That's exactly what i want, but both of us have been around long enough to know that it won't happen here on the p99 forums. A separate medium, sure, but most definitely won't happen here. I don't think anything i've mentioned to be unreasonable, thus to assume that i'm hiding something or being unreasonable isn't fair. If you want to chat with me you're welcome to do so. In fact, i'd love to have lots of people discuss the various options and alternatives, but i stress that i won't do it here.

Humwawa, i'm not going thru your arguments as their flawed and i frankly don't think i have to. Reread what I wrote and you'll find your answers.

I will answer the last one, though.

The noobie shouldn't be forced to join a big guild because of a dumbass limitation to truly be in a raiding guild. Currently, this is the way it is. That isn't everquest, that's your version of everquest.