Big Thanks to Cloki from Omni

[Daldaen]

Basically the issue was that guilds who allied very frequently didn't share slots in the rotation except for Gorrnaire which no one cared about.

On VS and Trakanon and CT and Inny, most every guild occupied a solo slot on the rotation, and smaller guilds who were incapable of solo killing most of these mobs during the majority of hours in the day, were able to team up, only 1 guild drops to bottom of rotation and then team up again when the other guild was up top. This lead to a situation where two equally sized forces... Guild A + Guild B = Guild C in total characters at raids.... Had Guild A+Guild B alliance killing mobs twice as often as Guild C.

Not because the small guilds were superior in quality of characters or strategy, or because the larger guild was a Zerg. Simply because alliancing didn't drop you to the bottom of the rotation if you were allying when your slot wasn't up yet.

The rotation went through many iterations of dumbness. But the ending of it was quite equally dumb.

Edit: how is this not RNF yet???

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Basically the issue was that guilds who allied very frequently didn't share slots in the rotation except for Gorrnaire which no one cared about.

On VS and Trakanon and CT and Inny, most every guild occupied a solo slot on the rotation, and smaller guilds who were incapable of solo killing most of these mobs during the majority of hour of the day, were able to team up, only 1 guild drops to bottom of rotation and then team up again when the other guild was up top. This lead to a situation where two equally sized forces... Guild A + Guild B = Guild C in total characters at raids.... Had Guild A+Guild B alliance killing mobs twice as often as Guild C.

Not because the small guilds were superior in quality of characters or strategy, or because the larger guild was a Zerg. Simply because alliancing didn't drop you to the bottom of the rotation if you were allying when your slot wasn't up yet.

Edit: how is this not RNF yet???

Which is why the bigger 3 guilds wanted change, we offered new rules, the small guilds told us to go pound sand, and class R FFA became a thing. I guess that's exactly the same thing as BDA ruined the server though.

[Ravager]

They didn't get the facts straight the first time, they won't get them right this time.

[Raev]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

alliance1 ... alliance2 ... alliance3

This is a bit of an exaggeration. I seem to remember BDA and The A-Team helping each other on early morning Trakanons. So BDA was definitely playing the alliance game as well, although probably not as much. On my (very short) second stint as the guild leader, I was actually trying to ally with multiple guilds. Did not go as planned!

Originally Posted by arsenalpow

the small guilds told us to go pound sand

I still think the A-Team's counter proposal was pretty good, and BDA just wanted an excuse to break the rotation. Oh well, water over the dam now. I am curious, though, whether the staff would have preserved the R/C system in some way if the rotation was still going.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is a bit of an exaggeration. I seem to remember BDA and The A-Team helping each other on early morning Trakanons. So BDA was definitely playing the alliance game as well, although probably not as much. On my (very short) second stint as the guild leader, I was actually trying to ally with multiple guilds. Did not go as planned!



I still think the A-Team's counter proposal was pretty good, and BDA just wanted an excuse to break the rotation. Oh well, water over the dam now. I am curious, though, whether the staff would have preserved the R/C system in some way if the rotation was still going.

Eh I think that Trak situation happened maybe one time. I think someone else was piloting Raev because I remember people texting talking about how bad the monking was, accidentally dragging Trak down onto the raid at the cubby multiple times lol.

[Juryiel]

The thing with agreements is, if both sides of the agreement are not benefiting in some way that is reasonable to them the agreement will collapse and pointing fingers will just waste your time.

I think if the 'Big 3' stuck to the arguments you're making now about how to allocate rotation slots in a way everyone thinks is fair and what to do about stuff that spawns at 3AM, rather than the whole ultimatum gatekeeper stuff where mobs were locked behind other mobs that were more difficult, you would have made more headway to coming to a mutual understanding and agreement because many of your concerns were actually reasonable.

But being the big fish in the small pond I guess gives you a sense of power and entitlement in negotiations since maybe you're giving up hypothetically more and getting a smaller benefit, and I get that. But hey at least it's prepared BDA for Velious mobilization and racing with Forsaken and Rampage as you claimed right? Right? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Juryiel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The thing with agreements is, if both sides of the agreement are not benefiting in some way that is reasonable to them the agreement will collapse and pointing fingers will just waste your time.

I think if the 'Big 3' stuck to the arguments you're making now about how to allocate rotation slots in a way everyone thinks is fair and what to do about stuff that spawns at 3AM, rather than the whole ultimatum gatekeeper stuff where mobs were locked behind other mobs that were more difficult, you would have made more headway to coming to a mutual understanding and agreement because many of your concerns were actually reasonable.

But being the big fish in the small pond I guess gives you a sense of power and entitlement in negotiations since maybe you're giving up hypothetically more and getting a smaller benefit, and I get that. But hey at least it's prepared BDA for Velious mobilization and racing with Forsaken and Rampage as you claimed right? Right? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What mobilization? If you want a Velious target you need to be willing to sock for up to 16 hours with a raid sitting at character select. ToV mobs are pulled in under a minute to the entrance or west or HoT exit. Kael mobs are literally snap pulled with coth and a TL box, train to EW and a peel to WL. That's not mobilzation like an earthquake. That's hardcore sock power.

[Man0warr]

I am curious, though, whether the staff would have preserved the R/C system in some way if the rotation was still going.

Doubtful - Sirken and Rogean were hinting at the Class system dissolving when Velious launched early on when talking about it. Their thinking being that more targets = no one gets locked completely out of the raid scene which is mostly correct.

[Juryiel]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What mobilization? If you want a Velious target you need to be willing to sock for up to 16 hours with a raid sitting at character select. ToV mobs are pulled in under a minute to the entrance or west or HoT exit. Kael mobs are literally snap pulled with coth and a TL box, train to EW and a peel to WL. That's not mobilzation like an earthquake. That's hardcore sock power.

But that's what breaking the rotation was meant to prepare people for right? Competing for mobs? (maybe mobilization was the wrong word). Sorry just messing around haha, it was just one of the more absurd arguments to come out of ending the rotation and it always made me chuckle. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Man0warr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Doubtful - Sirken and Rogean were hinting at the Class system dissolving when Velious launched early on when talking about it. Their thinking being that more targets = no one gets locked completely out of the raid scene which is mostly correct.

They might have kept it. They said they were still considering it fairly close to release. We'll never know I guess but it's not like the class system was worth while. The only good thing about it was the cooperation and not socking of the rotation. The rest of the system was basically not very good.

[Juevento]

Originally Posted by Juryiel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The rest of the system was basically not very good.

Honestly curious as to what specifically you think was problematic with the C/R system?