My America

[Taxi]

So you completely ignored my posting of the vietnamese declaration of independence after saying that this "crap" was still floating around and that lol, please find me an "academic" source to back that up. Good job.

Im done for the night, dishonest interlocutor.

[Xenephex]

Originally Posted by Taxi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So you completely ignored my posting of the vietnamese declaration of independence after saying that this "crap" was still floating around and that lol, please find me an "academic" source to back that up. Good job.

Im done for the night, dishonest interlocutor.

No, I didn't completely ignore you. You just lack any touch of subtlety. I've read the speech before (probably before you were born); I don't deny it's authenticity.

The 'crap' I was referring to was the interpretation of that document which you apparently accept. Said interpretation being that Ho was a great admirer of American democracy and wanted to form a government allied with the western powers after the end of the war until he was rejected and only then turned to the communists (that's pretty much precisely what we all believed in the 60's). It's hard to believe that interpretation still has any currency, what with Wikipedia and all.

It was a great speech, but it was not primarily directed towards the Vietnamese people; it was directed towards the western powers, and in particular the U.S., in hopes that they would a) grant Vietnam its independence and b) recognize Ho's Viet Minh as the legitimate government.

This was less than a month after the end of the war; there were still Japanese troops in Vietnam. There would shortly be British, French and Chinese troops in Vietnam and things were about to get complicated, but at that moment they were just confused. Ho seized the opportunity to declare his party the legitimate government of Vietnam and issue his declaration. He was well aware of what was happening half way around the world - that the Western powers, plus Russia, were in the process of deciding the face of the post-war world. It was a nice speech and it was a political ploy.

I remain disappointed that we (not meaning just the U.S. but the western powers in concert) gave Vietnam back to the French after the war (of course I am somewhat disappointed that we gave FRANCE back to the French after the war); there was considerable sentiment among many in power in the U.S. to grant Vietnam its independence. But the perception at the time was that we 'needed' France in post-war Europe, since they were the biggest country on the continent (outside the emerging communist bloc) that had not been an axis power during the war.

France had dictated the terms at Versailles after WW I (against U.S. objections) and had in the process almost guaranteed an eventual WW II. This time we had a different plan and we, for reasons I still don't comprehend, thought we needed the French and thus the French immediately became a major speaker in brokering all the crap that followed. We got the Western Europe we wanted (which didn't turn out too badly for them - compare and contrast Eastern Europe), and France got back its colonies, including Indochina. And France continued and continues to do exactly what France wants. They have never been anyone we could rely on, then or now.

So we should have granted Vietnam its independence, but we were never going to hand the country over to Ho. There were a lot of political factions in Vietnam - Catholics, Buddhists, and various non-religious factions that were not communist. The advantage that the communists had was that they were unified (well, after Ho killed off the opposition) and organized. But they NEVER represented anything close to a majority of the population.

You could look some of this stuff up yourself if you would go somewhere besides your radical websites (Wikipedia actually does at least a reasonable job on most of it). Suffice it to say, that the history of post-war Vietnam is complex and I'm tired of typing.

Bottom line: Nice speech which was a calculated political maneuver. i.e. Ho was not a fool. And, Ho was still a communist long before World War II. I covered it in my initial response. I just thought you knew a little more than you did.

[ShadowWulf]

I dunno, i think General Gilbert du Motier, marquis de Lafayette made all the difference in the end...

So we should have granted Vietnam its independence, but we were never going to hand the country over to Ho. There were a lot of political factions in Vietnam - Catholics, Buddhists, and various non-religious factions that were not communist. The advantage that the communists had was that they were unified (well, after Ho killed off the opposition) and organized. But they NEVER represented anything close to a majority of the population.

And as I said before it all comes down to political wheeling and dealing. We could of, should of, but didnt does not cut it im sorry. For that matter im not sure what you're trying to defend here. I am aware of the complexities of post WW2 Vietnam however nothing you said again addresses with any of my points made earlier, though in some way it seems to reinforce them. Both the eastern and western forces were guilty of plying favor in the region and attempting to expand its regional base of power. We sought to maintain close ties with France and hence acquiesced to their bid for the region while Ho and the communists he worked with from outside the country sought to do the same in their way.

The people were mostly not communist, you are correct in this, but what does it matter? You could also say they were hardly democratic for that matter if you had wished. In the end the people were caught in the middle, and crushed, by both "Liberating" and "Freedom loving" sides.

[Desert]

Alawen, I think you're wrong in that you assume those who aren't die hard flag wavers like yourself have given up on America.

Quite the contrary, I get the idea that people feel America has given up on Them. Nowadays, corporations are more important than human rights, Rogue nations that we are Allied with continue to tempt and threaten OUR peaceful existence by THEIR provocative actions towards their neighbors (israel was bad policy long before GW and 9/11). Do our votes even count anymore? How can you say that We have given up on America when it is so clear that, while America may not have given up on us, it's definitely forgotten.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure."
Unfortunately for all of your hard work, founding fathers, our past few generations have turned us into a society that has lost our backbone. The only way out of this mess is by revolution (of varying degrees), BUT we're so complacent and brainwashed into believing ANY attack on america is an act of terrorism, even if said act would better our country as a whole by cleansing our wounds of dead and decaying matter.

That said, going back to my opening sentence, i personally haven't given up on America itself, only the Americans that live there. George Orwell had it wrong... Huxley is a prophet.

[Taxi]

17 minutes of footage that will prove that martial law is a real threat, at least in Canada but that is also the legal atmosphere in the western world in general where more and more democratic rights are being trampled and trivialized, notably in the UK and italy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kZwp...layer_embedded

[ShadowWulf]

Xenephex: Re-read my post, in no way did i play down communism as a threat towards what most would consider freedom, however what i did point out and you ignored is the fact that the so called "free nations" do the same exact things as the communists, just in a more acceptable, publicly friendly, and in some cases invisible manner.

In our own way were just as bad as the communists nations of yore, better in some ways, worse in others. My point isn't to harp on the known transgressions of communism but to instead point out the same acts under a different guise perpetrated by the US and other nations, but which are far FAR to easy to conceal, hide and re direct attention from in the modern world. And unfortunatly most government expansion in the 20th century has, like it or not, been driven by money, power and the desire to expand. The western world knows this, because without it a huge portion of our domestic spending would wither and die.

US, China, UK, soviet Russia were all the same just the mechanisms are a little different. I seek a new way apart from these. New ideas are needed or else well just keep rehashing the same shit every 10-20 years and giving it a new label (like the English, the Spanish, The Mexican Army, Red Menace then Terrorism for the same lines re used)

Also as of yet nobody has bothered to define this "Liberty" theyre speaking of, such a simple thing might actually help people see eye to eye since i do NOT believe people see or understand it the same wey. Often its the most common place and "universal" words that are up to so much misinterpretation by various points of view. Just a thought...

TAXI: You read anything off of Z-Net? You might like it, or not, but the articles are fascinating though some should be taken with a grain of salt. Several articles on the G20 as well just got posted. http://www.zcommunications.org/journ...jesse-freeston

[Gorgetrapper]

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[ShadowWulf]

Originally Posted by Gorgetrapper [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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Yep, seen that one, funny also/ Though I have yet to see many penis's pop out in this thread (OH GAWD NO DONT!).
Only reason im still here is thuis far the discussion has be relatively mild, no huge fag lines, and the topic's are stimulating and good reading id imagine no matter what side your on.

[astarothel]

Originally Posted by ShadowWulf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have yet to see many penis's pop out in this thread (OH GAWD NO DONT!).

That just reminded me. I havent read Warren Ellis' blog in like a year. I should get on that shit.

[Taxi]

Another good 8 minutes of footage from the real news network about the g-20 events last week in Toronto:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu5o5891JS8