Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

. Bane and E-Bolt take less than a minute to finish each. Casting both spells takes a total of 2 ticks, and Bane is 7 ticks, E-bolt is 8 ticks. In one minute, that is already doing 48 DPS, assuming you aren't doing other DoTs/DD's.

A) with 2 charmed chanter pets mobs will not be alive long enough for 2 ticks of cast time and 7/8 additional ticks to get full return on mana. You are wasting mana and better off casting 2 ice strikes for less mana and more actual damage delivered on target before it dies.

B) you’re spending 745 mana per fight to do “48 dps” which, when paired with your pet is just barely more dps than a 60 water pet by itself, not factoring in mage nukes or DS.

C) you just dumped 745 mana PER FIGHT, spending 2 ticks just to get them loaded, on a mob that’s going to live 15-20 seconds (30 at most). So yeah you get 1-2 ticks (3 at most but nah it’ll be almost dead before you’re done casting) of total damage for 745 mana and barely better damage on a fast paced group fight than a mage could have accomplished in 1 nuke for 240 mana. This effectively puts you at a 500 HUNDRED MANA DEFICIT (per fight!!) relative to the mage. Yeah you can make that up with canni, but that’s gonna take you 6 canni IVs just yo break even. But wait, now you gotta torpor yourself to cover the difference. While you are doing all of the above the lazy mage is meditating and ready to drop more bombs while you self recover mana and juggle your health. That mage is also ready to engage and nuke the next mob while you try to cannibalize your 500 mana deficit back.

D) congrats. those 2 spells are massive aggro and you WILL rip aggro from the charm pets if you cast at the start of the fight. Now the cleric has to spend time/mana healing your ass OR you have to spend even more time torporing yourself.

Net result? You’re being super busy, ripping aggro, generating unnecessary cleric mana deficit from healing you instead of complete healing the 6-8k hp pet … all while actually doing maybe the same but probably less total damage than the mage pet by itself.

Vs the mage who is just sitting on their ass, pet attacking and lazily lobbing nukes … the sum total of which will blow your actual damage output out of the water.

But please. Join a fast moving HIGH DPS (remember this theoretical group is rocking 2 charm pets) and prove us otherwise.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A) with 2 charmed chanter pets mobs will not be alive long enough for 2 ticks of cast time and 7/8 additional ticks to get full return on mana. You are wasting mana and better off casting 2 ice strikes for less mana and more actual damage delivered on target before it dies.

B) you’re spending 745 mana per fight to do “48 dps” which, when paired with your pet is just barely more dps than a 60 water pet by itself, not factoring in mage nukes or DS.

C) you just dumped 745 mana PER FIGHT, spending 2 ticks just to get them loaded, on a mob that’s going to live 15-20 seconds (30 at most). So yeah you get 1-2 ticks (3 at most but nah it’ll be almost dead before you’re done casting) of total damage for 745 mana and barely better damage on a fast paced group fight than a mage could have accomplished in 1 nuke for 240 mana. This effectively puts you at a 500 HUNDRED MANA DEFICIT (per fight!!) relative to the mage. Yeah you can make that up with canni, but that’s gonna take you 6 canni IVs just yo break even. But wait, now you gotta torpor yourself to cover the difference. While you are doing all of the above the lazy mage is meditating and ready to drop more bombs while you self recover mana and juggle your health. That mage is also ready to engage and nuke the next mob while you try to cannibalize your 500 mana deficit back.

D) congrats. those 2 spells are massive aggro and you WILL rip aggro from the charm pets if you cast at the start of the fight. Now the cleric has to spend time/mana healing your ass OR you have to spend even more time torporing yourself.

Net result? You’re being super busy, ripping aggro, generating unnecessary cleric mana deficit from healing you instead of complete healing the 6-8k hp pet … all while actually doing maybe the same but probably less total damage than the mage pet by itself.

Vs the mage who is just sitting on their ass, pet attacking and lazily lobbing nukes … the sum total of which will blow your actual damage output out of the water.

But please. Join a fast moving HIGH DPS (remember this theoretical group is rocking 2 charm pets) and prove us otherwise.

A) It depends on the mob. A mob with 15000 HP or more will not die in 30 seconds. The DPS your Enchanter's pet was doing is 86, with haste and dual wield. That means 2x Enchanters is only dealing around 170 DPS. It will take 88 seconds to kill a mob at that speed, which is more than enough for DoTs to be ticking for their full duration, or close to it. A Shaman adding 80 DPS will still cause the mob to die in 60 seconds instead of 88, so again, full tick time.

B) Yes, and Shamans can recover mana a lot faster than a Mage. If you cast 2x Shock of Steel, that is 500 mana that can only be recovered while meditating.

C) We aren't talking about mobs that die fast when using DoTs. Why do you keep bringing this up? You would use DDs, as shown in my video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E

D) There is something called root. If the mob summons AND dies in 30 seconds, you wouldn't be DoTing a mob that dies this fast. If the mob summons and takes a long time to die, the Shaman is probably slow tanking it anyway.

Please provide Mage DPS data similar to mine first.

A fast paced group killing mobs in 30 seconds or less with just 2 Enchanters doesn't need extra DPS to begin with. You get diminishing returns on DPS increases. You only need 200 DPS to kill a mob in 40 seconds, and the 2x Enchanters are already covering that. An extra 30 DPS will only save you 5 seconds per kill.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A fast paced group killing mobs in 30 seconds or less with just 2 Enchanters doesn't need extra DPS to begin with.

No argument there, but they also do not need a shaman’s worse dps, their slow, heals, roots, or really anything else.

Option 1: take the mage doing considerably more dps, can haste mask pets, can DS, can give mod rods, can situationally CoTH as needed, has a pet that can tank as well as most “tanks” with bad oh shit moments and pet breaks, and who won’t be ripping aggro and siphoning cleric mana.

Option 2: take the shaman who does considerably less dps, has redundant heals/utility you won’t need, will gank aggro like a magnet if played the way you previously described.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No argument there, but they also do not need a shaman’s worse dps, their slow, heals, roots, or really anything else.

Option 1: take the mage doing considerably more dps, can haste mask pets, can DS, can give mod rods, can situationally CoTH as needed, has a pet that can tank as well as most “tanks” with bad oh shit moments and pet breaks, and who won’t be ripping aggro and siphoning cleric mana.

Option 2: take the shaman who does considerably less dps, has redundant heals/utility you won’t need, will gank aggro like a magnet if played the way you previously described.

I am not sure what the problem is then.

We both agree the DPS is irrelevant, which means the argument for Mage DPS is off the table.

When talking about the other two points that were brought up way earlier in the discussion, Charm Break Safety and Malo, the Shaman wins in those departments.

Shamans can also tank and save the group mana. You would use Tola robes on pets, not masks. Damage shield is part of the DPS argument, which we agree is irrelevant.

You would only pick Mage over Shaman if you need CoTH, which everybody including myself already agrees upon.

[Chortles Snortles]

guys i can root
(lol)

[Troxx]

From page 3 of this dumpster fire:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Cleric and ench duo are already wickedly OP. Add a second ench for 2nd pet and backup cc and it’s that much easier. So yeah 3/4 are spoken for.

Remaining options:

-druid (lol no)

-wizard (lol even more no)

-shaman: gives you redundant slows you don’t need, heals you won’t need, buffs you won’t need, a pet that sucks and malo (value added). Dots will not add much as with 2 ench pets nothing is alive long. Malo is good but shamans don’t have a monopoly on this line. Shaman isn’t a terrible choice, but you’re bringing along a class that can’t contribute as much as other options

-mage: strong pet for additional dps and backup tanking (value added), malo (value added), mod rods (value added), coth (value added for both mobility and aggro wipe mechanics), pet haste masks (value added as pets are literally all your dps) … and when all else is covered and nothing else needed, nifty nuke burn potential.

-necro: decent pet choices for additional dps and backup tanking (value added), twitches (value added), additional cc (value added root and screaming), backup heals (probably not needed but value added), FD (value added and opens up some content), snare (meh but value added?), backup rez (value added) … and when all else is covered they can burn extra mana nuking stuff down or just twitching.


So yeah in this theoretical best of the best it’s either
-clr/ench/ench/mage if you don’t need a FD split
-clr/ench/ench/nec if FD split would be useful or at a tougher camp that may benefit from the expanded necro tool kit (but you lose malo)

Shaman are a top notch class but compared to mage or necro … relative dead weight only contributing redundant bs you don’t really need. A competent cleric can easily manage 2 charming enchanters cross covering cc … and healing a charm pet is so laughably easy you don’t need slow … and when you do enchanters can do that too last I checked.


I fully expect a literal tidal wave of dissenting responses from DSM but I call em like I see em.

I stand by my first post in this thread … back before we got side tracked with you saying shamans can dps like mages and warriors can solo better than enchanters

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

warriors can solo better than enchanters

Why do people keep straw manning my arguments? I said a Warrior can do more DPS than an Enchanter pet levels 1-30, and I backed this up with data. I didn't say they could do it after level 30, as you seem to be implying.

You agree that the Mage DPS is irrelevant in a group with 2x Enchanters, so again I am not sure what the problem here is. With DPS off the table (including damage shields), the Shaman is superior in everything else you mentioned besides CoTH.

They can deal with charm breaks better.
They can Malo better.
They can tank better.
They can save the group mana.
Summoned Mage haste items are irrelevant when level 60s use Tola Robes for the Enchanter pets.

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They can deal with charm breaks better.
They can Malo better.
They can tank better.
They can save the group mana.
Summoned Mage haste items are irrelevant when level 60s use Tola Robes for the Enchanter pets.

1: Decent enchanters don't need help with this

2: Very slightly better malo. Largely irrelevant. Can speak from experience playing enc on p99 with both malo versions.

3: A tank isn't needed in this group

4: Not needed. Nobody is going oom in this group if played correctly.

5: Tola robes are certainly better. In the event they are not available a mage summoned haste item is a nice perk.

As has been pointed out countless times. Shamans are very powerful and have great utility. It's just not utility that is useful or needed for this particular group setup. You seem to be assuming the enc/clr are bad and/or will make frequent mistakes that a shaman will be useful to correct. Again we're assuming good players that very infrequently make mistakes. They're more than capable of chugging along without extra heals or a very slightly better resist debuff. All shamans bring to this group is mediocre DPS that (even by your own admission) a mage can do better. YES WE ALL KNOW DPS ISN'T SUPER IMPORTANT WITH 2 CHARMS YOU DENSE FUCK. Slightly more DPS is still better than less DPS with unnecessary utility.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1: Decent enchanters don't need help with this

2: Very slightly better malo. Largely irrelevant. Can speak from experience playing enc on p99 with both malo versions.

3: A tank isn't needed in this group

4: Not needed. Nobody is going oom in this group if played correctly.

5: Tola robes are certainly better. In the event they are not available a mage summoned haste item is a nice perk.

As has been pointed out countless times. Shamans are very powerful and have great utility. It's just not utility that is useful or needed for this particular group setup. All they bring to the group is mediocre DPS that (even by your own admission) a mage can do better.

Again, I am not sure what the disagreement here is then.

Even if we say the Malos are equal, that just nullifies the benefit.

If tanks aren't needed, that nullifies the Mage Pet tanking benefit.

If nobody is going oom, Mod Rods aren't needed.

If the group has Tola Robes, Muzzle isn't needed.

If The DPS is irrelevant for both a Mage and a Shaman, then you might as well bring the class that has a broader toolkit. If you need DPS the Shaman can provide it, but they offer a lot of other benefits as well. The only exception here is CoTH, which we all agree upon.

The difference is slightly better DPS vs. better safety. Safety is better when dealing with harder content, which is what level 60s do.

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, I am not sure what the disagreement here is then.

Even if we say the Malos are equal, that just nullifies the benefit.

If tanks aren't needed, that nullifies the Mage Pet tanking benefit.

If nobody is going oom, Mod Rods aren't needed.

If the group has Tola Robes, Muzzle isn't needed.

If The DPS is irrelevant for both a Mage and a Shaman, then you might as well bring the class that has a broader toolkit. If you need DPS the Shaman can provide it, but they offer a lot of other benefits as well. The only exception here is CoTH, which we all agree upon.

Perhaps the disagreement lies in you believing your unneeded utility is more important than extra DPS. I disagree heavily. Redundant utility has 0 value. Extra DPS (even if not needed) is more valuable.