Inny FTE rules clarification

[Metallikus]

What is the purpose of the additional Sirken babble in our guildchat about Trakanon FTE and INNY FTE being different? What is this "new rule" about first to damage? Please explain this.

[Bushido]

idk, i haven't played in a long time. but it's like comparing apples and oranges it sounds like to me. if you ran and killed inny close to his spawn it sounds like the same fte rules would apply. but as you pulled inny all the to the zone in it is completely different. could even be considered delaying to me(just my opinion, although i could be wrong). i don't know the situation.

[Sirken]

Originally Posted by Metallikus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What is the purpose of the additional Sirken babble in our guildchat about Trakanon FTE and INNY FTE being different? What is this "new rule" about first to damage? Please explain this.

the "additional babble" in your guild chat was because various members of your guild were sending me tells asking the same questions, and i value my time. teach your members to not bombard staff with tells, and let a single guild rep do it, and i won't have to do that.

as far as this damage thing, stop acting retarded. people pull inny. its not going to be awarded to some asshole FDing monk. people plop 150 on trak spawn spot, there is no pull. it is an absolutely instant engage and kill. realistically, its a completely random crap shoot which toon Trak picks.

if you dont see the difference then maybe someone in your guild, or another guild, can sit you down and explain it to you because you are beyond my help.


edit: and for the record, first damage or not, TMO would have had fte on Inny any way you sliced it. so again, wtf?

[Handull]

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

people plop 150 on trak spawn spot, there is no pull. it is an absolutely instant engage and kill.

this only happens when Trak goes into the last 4 or so hours of his window. otherwise it comes down to which guild gets 'enough' toons to log in first, trains away the juggs, and charges Trak.

It sounds like Sirken is trying to avoid the following scenarios (which are pretty much exactly the same):
1) GuildA is ready to pull Inny. GuildB has a monk strategically positioned who tags Inny right before GuildA pulls him. Technically GuildB has FTE, but GuildB was not seriously trying to pull him, only trying to unfairly snipe FTE.
2) GuildA is ready to charge Trak. GuildB sees GuildA is about to engage Trak, so GuildB has a monk tag him, sniping FTE, even though GuildB wasn't ready to engage Trak at the time.

Obviously, if you know the honest to god truth about what the puller/tagger/sniper was thinking, you'll know who is entitled to the loot rights. But you'll never know that unless the person with FTE is stupid and yells it out in /shout or in a /tell to brag.

The problem comes not in these clear cut scenarios (those being either one guild is simply trying to snipe FTE which is akin to rules lawyering or 150 are on the spawn, which can happen with any/every mob, and it simply comes down to random chance on FTE), but rather with the in-between scenarios:

3) GuildA is ready to charge Trak. GuildB may or may not have enough force to engage Trak, but they see GuildA is ready, so their hand is forced and they are willing to risk wiping for FTE. GuildB charges Trak at the same time as GuildA. Both guilds share in the killing of the mob, and loot rights are traditionally determined by which guild had FTE aka first agro. GuildB had first on agro list FTE and GuildB's FTE toon did damage to Trak, but its unclear if GuildB could have killed Trak if it weren't for GuildA also being on the mob.

4) GuildA and GuildB are both trying to pull Inny, most likely at the same time. GuildA gets first on agro list FTE but GuildB is also ready for the pull and has the puller hit the mob before running to the camp. Did GuildB just 'legally' pull-steal the mob from GuildA?

5) GuildA eye-agro's Fay and starts pulling him to Ogre Isle where a full force is waiting. GuildB who was camped out at chessboard cuts Fay off in his pathing and kills him long before Fay would have otherwise gotten to GuildA's prep spot. Is this now allowed because no damage was done to Fay?

6) GuildA eye-agro's Fay and starts pulling him to Ogre Isle where a few guildies are waiting, and the hope is that enough will log in and/or zone in before Fay gets to the camp. GuildB who was camped out at chessboard cuts Fay off in his pathing and kills him long before Fay would have otherwise gotten to GuildA's prep spot. Is this now allowed because its not even known if GuildA could have killed Fay and because no damage was done?

7) GuildA is stall-tanking VS with a chain of toons using DA-idols, voidance/riposte discs, etc. GuildA maintains at least one toon on VS's agro list at all times (ie he never resets), but GuildB has a full force in zone to kill VS. Can GuildB now pull VS off the GuildA tanks since GuildB is ready to take down the mob and GuildA is still waiting for more people to log in? Here we have GuildA doing damage to the mob, but only negligible damage compared to VS's total HP.

I didn't mean for this to get so long, but there are so many scenarios to consider and each one can be rule lawyered in its own way. I think the best course of action is to keep the rules simple (first on agro list = FTE = loot rights), but allow the GMs to make rulings otherwise either based on what they saw if they were there or based on something obvious, like GuildA had FTE, but only had 5 toons in zone through the whole fight against Trak. Let the guilds work it out for those ambiguous situations. If GuildA is ready for Trak and sees GuildB charge with 20 people, maybe they should sit back and hope GuildB wipes rather than trying to charge in along side them, assuring the mob dies, and leaving it up to who was lucky/skillful enough to nab FTE.

The only real change I would like to see is that when a quest item drops from a raid mob (VS stone, Trak tooth, etc), GuildA loots it, and then GuildA quickly turns it in, then GuildB is awarded loot rights, I would like to see GuildA lose the quest reward they got and get back the other quest items that they had gotten legitimately. It seems unfair that GuildA gets part of the benefit of the kill permanently, even though GuildB is also given the quest items they are entitled to. If people wised up and coordinated their efforts, we could abuse this and double the number of quest drops that raid mobs have [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd also like to see Fay drop his pod. 0/4 in a row dry spell is killing me :P

[Sirken]

Originally Posted by Handull [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

this only happens when Trak goes into the last 4 or so hours of his window. otherwise it comes down to which guild gets 'enough' toons to log in first, trains away the juggs, and charges Trak.

It sounds like Sirken is trying to avoid the following scenarios (which are pretty much exactly the same):
1) GuildA is ready to pull Inny. GuildB has a monk strategically positioned who tags Inny right before GuildA pulls him. Technically GuildB has FTE, but GuildB was not seriously trying to pull him, only trying to unfairly snipe FTE.
2) GuildA is ready to charge Trak. GuildB sees GuildA is about to engage Trak, so GuildB has a monk tag him, sniping FTE, even though GuildB wasn't ready to engage Trak at the time.

Obviously, if you know the honest to god truth about what the puller/tagger/sniper was thinking, you'll know who is entitled to the loot rights. But you'll never know that unless the person with FTE is stupid and yells it out in /shout or in a /tell to brag.

The problem comes not in these clear cut scenarios (those being either one guild is simply trying to snipe FTE which is akin to rules lawyering or 150 are on the spawn, which can happen with any/every mob, and it simply comes down to random chance on FTE), but rather with the in-between scenarios:

3) GuildA is ready to charge Trak. GuildB may or may not have enough force to engage Trak, but they see GuildA is ready, so their hand is forced and they are willing to risk wiping for FTE. GuildB charges Trak at the same time as GuildA. Both guilds share in the killing of the mob, and loot rights are traditionally determined by which guild had FTE aka first agro. GuildB had first on agro list FTE and GuildB's FTE toon did damage to Trak, but its unclear if GuildB could have killed Trak if it weren't for GuildA also being on the mob.

4) GuildA and GuildB are both trying to pull Inny, most likely at the same time. GuildA gets first on agro list FTE but GuildB is also ready for the pull and has the puller hit the mob before running to the camp. Did GuildB just 'legally' pull-steal the mob from GuildA?

5) GuildA eye-agro's Fay and starts pulling him to Ogre Isle where a full force is waiting. GuildB who was camped out at chessboard cuts Fay off in his pathing and kills him long before Fay would have otherwise gotten to GuildA's prep spot. Is this now allowed because no damage was done to Fay?

6) GuildA eye-agro's Fay and starts pulling him to Ogre Isle where a few guildies are waiting, and the hope is that enough will log in and/or zone in before Fay gets to the camp. GuildB who was camped out at chessboard cuts Fay off in his pathing and kills him long before Fay would have otherwise gotten to GuildA's prep spot. Is this now allowed because its not even known if GuildA could have killed Fay and because no damage was done?

7) GuildA is stall-tanking VS with a chain of toons using DA-idols, voidance/riposte discs, etc. GuildA maintains at least one toon on VS's agro list at all times (ie he never resets), but GuildB has a full force in zone to kill VS. Can GuildB now pull VS off the GuildA tanks since GuildB is ready to take down the mob and GuildA is still waiting for more people to log in? Here we have GuildA doing damage to the mob, but only negligible damage compared to VS's total HP.

I didn't mean for this to get so long, but there are so many scenarios to consider and each one can be rule lawyered in its own way. I think the best course of action is to keep the rules simple (first on agro list = FTE = loot rights), but allow the GMs to make rulings otherwise either based on what they saw if they were there or based on something obvious, like GuildA had FTE, but only had 5 toons in zone through the whole fight against Trak. Let the guilds work it out for those ambiguous situations. If GuildA is ready for Trak and sees GuildB charge with 20 people, maybe they should sit back and hope GuildB wipes rather than trying to charge in along side them, assuring the mob dies, and leaving it up to who was lucky/skillful enough to nab FTE.

The only real change I would like to see is that when a quest item drops from a raid mob (VS stone, Trak tooth, etc), GuildA loots it, and then GuildA quickly turns it in, then GuildB is awarded loot rights, I would like to see GuildA lose the quest reward they got and get back the other quest items that they had gotten legitimately. It seems unfair that GuildA gets part of the benefit of the kill permanently, even though GuildB is also given the quest items they are entitled to. If people wised up and coordinated their efforts, we could abuse this and double the number of quest drops that raid mobs have [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd also like to see Fay drop his pod. 0/4 in a row dry spell is killing me :P

thank you for taking the time to make a well written, well thought out post.

the problem is, most of these kids want concrete black and white rules for the entire raid scene so that they can start preparing how to find loopholes in the wording, and get their legal team of rule lawyers on the case. sadly for them thats not going to happen.

the only reason i do the loots the way i do is because 1) its easier, and 2) i dont like punishing people because i was not there right away/or they had to wait. but ill talk to Ephi for an outside opinion, and see what he thinks about that as well.

[SamwiseRed]

no FTE or spawn variance on red. THINK ABOUT IT. not recruiting from red btw, i know more than half of you would join nilly. just pointing out that you dont have to deal with this shit.

[Nizzarr]

We also pull innoruuk to the zone line on red, over the corpse of slain basketball players.

Innoruuk is serious business.

[Doors]

The easiest solution would be to ban all of TMO. You'd end the RMT ring and clean up the raiding scene all in one motion.

[Thana8088]

Originally Posted by Doors [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The easiest solution would be to ban all of TMO. You'd end the RMT ring and clean up the raiding scene all in one motion.

An even easier solution is to ban people who suggest indiscriminately banning people.

[fishingme]

Originally Posted by Thana8088 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

An even easier solution is to ban people who suggest indiscriminately banning people.

Funny enough, plenty of tmo have suggested it