far right jews, a force for peace

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Tradesonred [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Because its a current event?

And why would you get your panties in a bunch over this if you werent in some way at a discomfort that some people are pointing this out?

We can talk about saudi arabia all day if you want

I wear thongs, they don't bunch.

You're welcome to point it out as much as you want. And like I said, if your point is merely that violently religious people are a problem, we don't disagree on anything. I was just remarking upon the disproportionate outrage devoted to Israel-Palestine.

[Tradesonred]

Also as others pointed out, Assad is doing his crimes mostly without our support

[Peatree]

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These are deep thoughts...

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by purist 4.0 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As an American taxpayer, I'm not footing the bill for Bashar Assad's military. I'm footing the bill (unwillingly) for Israel's military, which makes me individually (as well as Americans collectively) complicit in said repression. The American taxpayer can therefore legitimately restrict his (or her) criticism to the slaughtering they unwillingly pay for.

That's fair, but foreign aid is largely misrepresented. It's about buying influence as much as supporting regimes.

Aside from Israel, do you know who makes up the rest of our top 5 for foreign aid?

Egypt - $1.5 billion
Iraq - $1.6 billion
Pakistan - $2.1 billion
Afghanistan - $2.3 billion

Hardly friends. Pakistan was harboring Osama. And yet the checks roll in, because at the end of the day, we need a bargaining chip in that country and $2 billion buys us a bargaining chip.

Israeli support is a different breed, because it's popularly supported, but at the end of the day, that aid allows us to stay their hand when it comes to Iran and make strong suggestions -- if not directives -- when it comes to Palestine, Lebanon, and Syria. For a paltry $3 billion a year, the investment makes sense.

[Peatree]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Aside from Israel, do you know who makes up the rest of our top 5 for foreign aid?

Egypt - $1.5 billion
Iraq - $1.6 billion
Pakistan - $2.1 billion
Afghanistan - $2.3 billion

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[Daldolma]

Kind of crazy, isn't it?

But that's why you can't really think about it as "support". We're not giving Pakistan $2.1 billion because we appreciate them harboring al Qaeda. We're not giving Egypt $1.5 billion because we're huge fans of the Muslim Brotherhood.

It's all strategic. In theory, it's way, way, way cheaper to spend $10 billion a year on all of these countries combined and keep them from blowing each other up than it would be to actually have to enter (another) land war to protect our oil interests.

[Swish]

You look at a map of the countries surrounding Iran now, and look at all the installed democracies and shit that's gone on in the last few years.

If you were Iran, you'd want nuclear weapons. All this shit in Israel/Gaza is just a continuation of it all. Iran is being surrounded, Obama needs a legacy... the shit is going to hit the fan.

And for all the Palestinian sympathizers out there (seems to be plenty in the UK even if the BBC is backing Israel in its coverage), they're no better than the Jews.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e49_1353437540

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by Swish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...

And for all the Palestinian sympathizers out there (seems to be plenty in the UK even if the BBC is backing Israel in its coverage), they're no better than the Jews.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e49_1353437540

I doubt anyone here is going to defend Hamas. It makes little sense to deflect criticism of Israel at Hamas by saying "look, they're just as bad!!". Hamas and the Israeli government can both be bad at the same time. Israel receives more criticism probably because (a) there are sane people who actually defend Israel, so their culpability is a debateable issue, (b) they're expected to adhere to norms that other democracies generally adhere to, ie not deliberately targeting civilians, using chemical weapons, and that kind of stuff, and (c) as was already mentioned, they receive a lot of military aid from the US. This isn't to say that Hamas shouldn't be criticized. Also, I think you can call yourself a "Palestinian sympathizer" and still be very critical of Hamas.

[Heebee]

Originally Posted by Tradesonred [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZLN...ayer_embedded#!

Fake subtitles. Nice try though!

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I doubt anyone here is going to defend Hamas. It makes little sense to deflect criticism of Israel at Hamas by saying "look, they're just as bad!!". Hamas and the Israeli government can both be bad at the same time. Israel receives more criticism probably because (a) there are sane people who actually defend Israel, so their culpability is a debateable issue, (b) they're expected to adhere to norms that other democracies generally adhere to, ie not deliberately targeting civilians, using chemical weapons, and that kind of stuff, and (c) as was already mentioned, they receive a lot of military aid from the US. This isn't to say that Hamas shouldn't be criticized. Also, I think you can call yourself a "Palestinian sympathizer" and still be very critical of Hamas.

You're being reasonable. But you're getting caught up in a false equivalence. Yes, Israel has committed war crimes and human rights violations. Yes, the Israeli government is, at times, excessively brutal. Yes, given their level of technology and progress they should be better than some of the things they've done.

But there is no parallel between Israel and Hamas. Hamas literally dragged a dead body from the back of a motorcycle today as bystanders cheered because they think he collaborated with Israel. They killed 6 alleged collaborators today. No trial, nothing. And obviously, they shoot rockets into Israel with absolutely no intent to target military personnel. They aim to inflict as much civilian damage as possible -- they're just not very good at it.

Israel, on the other hand, has dropped over 1300 missiles into Gaza, one of the most densely populated places in the world, and killed under 100 civilians. They have placed phone calls, dropped leaflets, dropped warning shots, and reserved many attacks for nightfall in order to minimize civilian casualties. You can absolutely blame Israel for perpetuating hostilities, you can absolutely blame them for prior violations, but in the current escalation, Israel is making, if nothing more, a very reasonable effort to spare civilian life.

Israel clearly has better technology and it's obviously not a level playing field in that regard, but Hamas is targeting Israeli civilians intentionally and recklessly. Israel is making efforts to preserve civilian life, even if their response is disproportionate (arguable). And the rhetoric from both sides supports this. Taken at their words, Hamas admits to targeting "every Israeli". Israel, though perhaps less than entirely sincere, has repeatedly expressed a desire to avoid civilian casualties. You can't evaluate these entities in a vacuum. Reasonably speaking, Israel cannot win with Hamas. They can absorb rocket attacks or they can respond and face condemnation for unintentional civilian casualties. There's no in-between.

Anyway, Israel's government has major flaws, and it's impossible not to sympathize with Palestinian civilians, but Hamas is far more radical and far more violent than Israel's government. Hamas is not a viable solution to anything. Then again, the unfortunate truth is that there may not be a viable solution to this conflict.