VS Remains & 'summoned' Fay

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not really sure how it's a troll. Other guilds have shown they are perfectly capable of killing VS, they just don't feel like poopsocking for 96 hours because that's completely unreasonable and not classic.

I think it might be a troll because:

1) a rez clicky is the single most valuable epic to a guild that raids

2) a druid is not sitting there clicking air trying to turn in a quest item first with X other clerics

Thus, it made sense to work together and hash out a Ragefire rotation.

Yeah, a lot of the other epics have bottlenecks of 96-hour window mobs too. The frustration is also created because EVERYONE WANTS THEIR EPIC NOW NOW NOW, and we know exactly what to turn in where in order to get them, whereas in Live this took weeks/months to figure out in some cases.

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think it might be a troll because:

1) a rez clicky is the single most valuable epic to a guild that raids

2) a druid is not sitting there clicking air trying to turn in a quest item first with X other clerics

Thus, it made sense to work together and hash out a Ragefire rotation.

Yeah, a lot of the other epics have bottlenecks of 96-hour window mobs too. The frustration is also created because EVERYONE WANTS THEIR EPIC NOW NOW NOW, and we know exactly what to turn in where in order to get them, whereas in Live this took weeks/months to figure out in some cases.

Right, I see your point - clicking air for a 72 hours is a ridiculous waste of time when it's essentially random who "wins", so it should be rotated. I just feel that competition over VS has gotten absurd in a similar way - seeing 30 people from a single guild in zone at all times is kind of discouraging for anyone wanting a shot at the mob (especially since it's also an epic mob). When it gets closer to the end of VS's window the poopsocking gets even worse. This is probably more of a reason that the raid rules need to be changed than it is a reason to rotate, but still I think you can see our frustration.

And I know this is a bit unrelated, but it's bad for the project as a whole to only have two guilds engaging most of the content since that means less people can report problems with the encounters. I know that it wasn't until our first attempt on VS that anyone reported the bug with rune not stopping innate procs. Supposedly before then his lifetap was resistable, which is also really bad and wasn't reported until more guilds started getting attempts on him. I'm not saying VD or TMO purposely keeps bugs secret, just that when less people experience the content, less people can report problems with it. That's just a fact.

[Slave]

This statement is false:

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

it's bad for the project as a whole to only have two guilds engaging most of the content since that means less people can report problems with the encounters.

The following statement, while true, has nothing to do with the above quotation whatsoever:

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

when less people experience the content, less people can report problems with it. That's just a fact.

Guilds are not monolithic entities... they are made up of people. The most successful guilds are generally the largest guilds. The largest guilds have the most people in it, by definition. And as we all know, when more people experience the content, more people can report problems with it.

[falkun]

This is how attempts at server rotations go:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...ad.php?t=66783

Started as a serious thread in Server Chat, quickly ridden into the RnF cesspool.

However, here is the response received from leadership of one of the guilds polled for the rotation prior to the post moving to RnF:

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rotations are generally created when it is in the rotating guild’s interests to do so. Very rarely, if ever, are they fully motivated by altruism. Each guild will zealously look out for its own interests as it should. TMO needs a lot of teeth still, and this is probably the biggest reason we’re not currently overly interested in a rotation. Notice that TMO only began rotating with IB when it was getting roughly half or slightly more of the Traks.

It’s decision theory. That said, eventually TMO would probably agree to a rotation when it appears in the guild’s interests. TMO is, overall, interested in being a reasonable and valuable portion of the community. But, the first responsibility is to the membership. While I appreciate the idea of an open slot on the rotation, accepting that when so many members still need teeth and other drops, would violate the duty the guild owes its members.

In regards to the quotes of Zeelot from Coldblooded, I meant to say in my original post that “I don’t think VD reached out BEFORE the training and such began a week or two ago.” I used the idea of “good faith” negotiation in my post. Please try to understand that, from TMO’s perspective, trying to negotiate right now in light of the VP activities is probably not going to feel like good faith. To TMO at least. That said, I’ll relegate that discussion to that thread.

EDIT: Ragefire was agreed to and respected. Yes, we had people in the lair. There was significant and heated debate within the guild, and the efforts to persuade others to respect the Ragefire rotation were immense and contentious. Please don't bring that us here as it will add nothing. TMO has decided to respect that. Please don't undo the difficult work it took to ensure that. Thank you.

To both TMO and VD in this thread, whatever we might feel is true and justified, or the right thing to say, let's use a bit of judgment before we say anything we KNOW will provoke the other side. Right or wrong, this is not the place to hash out our grievances.

Basically, as long as it is in the best interest of TMO, do not expect to see a rotation for specifically Trakanon, but I don't think its a huge stretch that this philosophy applies to all raid targets in TMO's sights. Now, the rest of this server can attempt to set up server rotations, but excluding one of the two top poop-socking guilds on this server will not please their members, who "still need teeth and other drops [in order to not] violate the duty [TMO] still owes its members."

[aerah]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Basically, as long as it is in the best interest of TMO, do not expect to see a rotation for specifically Trakanon, but I don't think its a huge stretch that this philosophy applies to all raid targets in TMO's sights. Now, the rest of this server can attempt to set up server rotations, but excluding one of the two top poop-socking guilds on this server will not please their members, who "still need teeth and other drops [in order to not] violate the duty [TMO] still owes its members."

I should preface this by saying I have no vested interest in rotations or end game raiding. I'm level 33 in game, and realistically won't see raid content unless it's by dumb luck.

When people join the biggest, strongest, most mobile, or generally considered "best" raiding guild on a server, they don't do it by chance. There's an understanding of commitment in both time (or downtime) and knowledge of encounters that the player brings to the guild, and the guild brings like minded players. This enables the guild to succeed. Why do I bring this up? Put the shoe on the other foot...

If VD started coming into a bunch of Trak Teeth to get into VP, would you want to share them out? Similarly, if VD was getting most the Trak Teeth and you joined because you wanted to be in the dominant guild and see end game, how would you feel if they agreed to a rotation?

If your answer to either question is "I'd be ok with it," then honestly you don't have what it takes to be in the 5%. That's what Everquest raid content was designed for, the top 5% of the server. The bleeding edge.

You want a rotation? Then force the people who are getting all the spawns into recognizing you, with your ability to take their mobs. Isn't that pretty much what TMO did to IB?

Yes, it gets sticky when contested mobs drop epic pieces. Until such a time as the triggered mobs come about, creativity will be needed to circumvent your problem. After all, epics weren't meant to be achieved by everyone (see: 5%.) Want something from VS? Offer whoever is camping it some compensation for loot rights to your item. Come to terms and make the commitment to be there.

Nothing in Everquest was handed to anyone (except Bards - stupid mass kiters.) The whole idea of this server is to remake the "experience," right? This was the experience. It was great if you were a "have," but it really, really sucked if you were a "have not." That's classic.

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by aerah [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nothing in Everquest was handed to anyone ... The whole idea of this server is to remake the "experience," right? This was the experience. It was great if you were a "have," but it really, really sucked if you were a "have not." That's classic.

Actually waiting up to 96 hours for a raid mob to spawn wasn't classic - the entry cost into the raid scene is much higher on this server than it was on Live.

I don't actually support a rotation, I support simultaneous repops (like Nilbog sorta talked about in a previous thread), I just wanted to point out how silly competition over VS has become. As for Slave, I'm not responding to your last post because it's an obvious troll.

[falkun]

Originally Posted by aerah [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I should preface this by saying I have no vested interest in rotations or end game raiding. I'm level 33 in game, and realistically won't see raid content unless it's by dumb luck.

Judging by some of the items you've sold, you've had quite a streak of dumb luck, so the only thing preventing you from raid content is you.

Originally Posted by aerah [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When people join the biggest, strongest, most mobile, or generally considered "best" raiding guild on a server, they don't do it by chance. There's an understanding of commitment in both time (or downtime) and knowledge of encounters that the player brings to the guild, and the guild brings like minded players. This enables the guild to succeed. Why do I bring this up? Put the shoe on the other foot...

If VD started coming into a bunch of Trak Teeth to get into VP, would you want to share them out? Similarly, if VD was getting most the Trak Teeth and you joined because you wanted to be in the dominant guild and see end game, how would you feel if they agreed to a rotation?

Can't say that I'm 100% for a rotation, but, especially for certain encounters, it alleviates a lot of crud (IE: ragefire). As for your specific concerns on Trak's teeth and VP? I like the rotation I linked. And besides saving TMO and VD poop-time from sitting on The Mountain(TM), it would slowly allow other guilds to prepare for VP by (albeit slowly) acquiring their own teeth. This is a 10+ year old server, the joys for me are in seeing the things I never saw before and killing things I never saw before. If I wanted "bleeding edge", I'd check out one of the multitude of "bleeding edge" games, where the boss fights have 10,000 different phases and abilities, and I have a rotation to play to perfection while dodging "the bad". Its hard to argue for "bleeding edge" on an 11 year old server.

Like Giegue though, I'd also support simultaneous repops, or a "only X Y and Z mob" rotation. I don't have the answer, but pretty much everyone agrees end-game on this server is FUBAR.

Originally Posted by aerah [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If your answer to either question is "I'd be ok with it," then honestly you don't have what it takes to be in the 5%. That's what Everquest raid content was designed for, the top 5% of the server. The bleeding edge.

You want a rotation? Then force the people who are getting all the spawns into recognizing you, with your ability to take their mobs. Isn't that pretty much what TMO did to IB?

That's why I play an 11 year old game. I'm not in the 5% that gets paid for world firsts, I'm with the other 1% that thinks MMOs didn't get better with time. We did force a rotation, and TMO almost backed out of it (See: Ragefire). TMO has flatly refused any other rotations, therefore VD is doing exactly as you state we should. However, the majority of this server is here to, like I stated earlier, see Norrath again, including possibly seeing new places and encounters they hadn't. They flatly refuse to play down in the dirt with TMO, and having been down here, I can understand why.

But VD has advocated for rotations that include all raid-capable guilds, and not solely when it suits us, but when the server would be served as well. P99 can be a great place, and thankfully, its also much smaller than Live servers. Yes, you hated rotations on your Live server, but this server contains a much smaller population, so rotations would be smaller (shorter).

Finally, TMO did push IB to rotation, in every zone except VP. VP was opened on rotation between IB and TMO. If you'd like additional server history, I suggest you check R&F, but take a salt truck with you (a pinch won't be enough).

Originally Posted by aerah [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, it gets sticky when contested mobs drop epic pieces. Until such a time as the triggered mobs come about, creativity will be needed to circumvent your problem. After all, epics weren't meant to be achieved by everyone (see: 5%.) Want something from VS? Offer whoever is camping it some compensation for loot rights to your item. Come to terms and make the commitment to be there.

Nothing in Everquest was handed to anyone (except Bards - stupid mass kiters.) The whole idea of this server is to remake the "experience," right? This was the experience. It was great if you were a "have," but it really, really sucked if you were a "have not." That's classic.

Honestly, I consider myself a "have". But do I think everyone on this server must go through the efforts I have to obtain this status? No, not on a nostalgia server. I don't wish the poop-socking I've had to do on any other player on this server, not even TMO. But if they won't rotate, be sure that I'll be contesting everything I can.

Finally, LOL at bard kiting as "Everquest handed to Bards".

[aerah]

You make good points Falkun, but instead of doing a line by line debate, I just want to post a few things. Take them for what they are because, like I said, I'm not in the "scene." Just more opinions from a casual observer who's been there.

The only thing preventing me from raid content IS me. You're correct. I don't have the time to put 5+ hours in every day. I'm sure that number will grow as Velious drops and armor must be camped. I might get into a hate or fear raid by being in the right place at the right time, or tyring my best to be friendly with everyone -- but that's the extent I see my end game here.

There is a difference between "seeing" endgame, and "experiencing" endgame. You say you want to see the things you didn't from your time in live. I'm sure there's a server where you can basically god-mode yourself and roll VP. What I think, though, is that you want to experience it. That's understandable, and I think why some people might be here. They might be in some other guild, too. The problem is this server wasn't made so that everyone could experience everything. It was made to re-live the classic experience, at least that's not what I got from my time here. I'm sure if the entire community clamored for a raid scene change, something would happen.

Serious question, which you may or may not be able/allowed to answer. Does VD have enough VP keys to raid the zone? If you do, then there's no reason why you shouldn't be pressuring TMO inside of VP (without mem blur) and attempting to force a rotation there. My understanding, and it might be off, is that VP was opened on rotation because both guilds COULD field a raid force for the zone. This was accomplished by a significant effort on TMO's part to farm Teeth immediately prior to VP release. If you don't, then you have to understand that any attempt at organizing a Trak rotation on your guild's part seems guided primarily by the benefit it poses to VD, regardless of whatever "server community" altruism you're attempting to display.

All this said, I don't agree with sitting on top of a spawn point for 96 hours waiting for a mob to pop. That's not fun, and it never was. Kudos to you guys for trying to beat TMO at the raid game, nothing like good competition. Finally, just because this game is 10+ years old, doesn't mean there aren't people who are on the bleeding edge of the content it has to offer. You (and your guild) want to be there, and you recognize not everyone will make it there.

I do hope people can at least try to help out the less fortunate with their epics, though. It is really fun to have one. I also shudder at the thought of what Sleeper's Tomb will do to this server.

[Goraith]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Can't say that I'm 100% for a rotation, but, especially for certain encounters, it alleviates a lot of crud (IE: ragefire). As for your specific concerns on Trak's teeth and VP? I like the rotation I linked. And besides saving TMO and VD poop-time from sitting on The Mountain(TM), it would slowly allow other guilds to prepare for VP by (albeit slowly) acquiring their own teeth. This is a 10+ year old server, the joys for me are in seeing the things I never saw before and killing things I never saw before. If I wanted "bleeding edge", I'd check out one of the multitude of "bleeding edge" games, where the boss fights have 10,000 different phases and abilities, and I have a rotation to play to perfection while dodging "the bad". Its hard to argue for "bleeding edge" on an 11 year old server.



That's why I play an 11 year old game. I'm not in the 5% that gets paid for world firsts, I'm with the other 1% that thinks MMOs didn't get better with time. We did force a rotation, and TMO almost backed out of it (See: Ragefire). TMO has flatly refused any other rotations, therefore VD is doing exactly as you state we should. However, the majority of this server is here to, like I stated earlier, see Norrath again, including possibly seeing new places and encounters they hadn't.

/\/\/\/\ +1

[Frieza_Prexus]

Point of information: I am not an officer or part of TMO's leadership. I suppose I could be considered to have senior status or something, as a member, but I am not actively involved with leadership decisions.

So, take the quoted text from me above with that in mind.