Game Mechanics: AC/Level Mitigation & Backstabs

[Supaskillz]

I will save some parses this week, but I know I am getting BS for minimum far more than 20%

[Dravingar]

This graph was for maybe 2-3 hours down at Juggs/reets. Shows 380ish backstabs total, which puts it at 50% or so. This was with a SCD at 60 with 250+ ish str.

Edit : Also there was me dropping duelist in there at one point on Tolajump/Prot.

[Baxter]

Here is some data of my escapades at Sebilis king and PoH with a 10 damage SCD. None of these mobs have particularly high AC so I'm disappointed with the results. There were no discs used(duelist lasting 15 seconds?). This data covers 80 fights(40 from king, 40 from PoH).

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354 successful backstabs, 150 of which were for a minimum of 120. Thats just over 42% of backstabs being for minimum. This data doesn't jive with what Kanras is saying.

Our "magic number" seems to be 130. To me this number seems very low to be our magic number. I wasn't a rogue on live so I cant say if this is correct or not. My gut feeling says it can't be right because its only 10 more than minimum.

Whats really depressing to me is if you add all backstabs up that land between 120 and 130. You get a total of 197 backstabs out of 354 for a total of 56% of all my backstabs landing between 120-130. Thats just depressing, it cant be right.

[aresprophet]

This thread is really making me wish I remembered how to use R because I could figure out the formula the server is using from this parse data.

I note that the magic number is (apparently) min + weapon damage, which means that the multiplier appears to only be affecting weapon damage and also appears to be heavily influenced by AC, perhaps more than it should. If the 1.00 to 3.55 range is correct, AC is too heavily weighted in the calculation of that PC-specific modifier.

This thread plus my suspicion that certain other facets of the melee attack system on this server as miscalculated makes me really want to get back into using R and organize a project to figure out melee variables.

[Baxter]

Our "magic number" seems to be 130. To me this number seems very low to be our magic number. I wasn't a rogue on live so I cant say if this is correct or not. My gut feeling says it can't be right because its only 10 more than minimum.

I should have paid closer attention to the data Kanras posted earlier on the first page. The magic number in his logs is 194 and not 130 like it is now.

[Treats]

Weapon damage will increase your Max hit and Magic Number by a lot.

60 Rogue
225 Backstab
200 Strength

10 DMG Piercer - (130) Magic Number, (293) Max hit
11 DMG Piercer - (143) Magic Number, (323) Max hit
12 DMG Piercer - (156) Magic Number, (352) Max hit
13 DMG Piercer - (169) Magic Number, (381) Max hit
14 DMG Piercer - (182) Magic Number, (411) Max hit
15 DMG Piercer - (195) Magic Number, (440) Max hit

[Aadill]

@Shiftin:

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

10 DMG Piercer - (130) Magic Number, (293) Max hit
11 DMG Piercer - (143) Magic Number, (323) Max hit
12 DMG Piercer - (156) Magic Number, (352) Max hit
13 DMG Piercer - (169) Magic Number, (381) Max hit
14 DMG Piercer - (182) Magic Number, (411) Max hit
15 DMG Piercer - (195) Magic Number, (440) Max hit

Actually the magic number is a diminishing curve (13 points per level, diminishes from 9 to 6% gains per damage increase on weapon) and the max hit is also a diminishing curve (29-30 points per level, diminishes from 9 to 6% gains per damage increase on weapon)

As far as ATK not affecting damage distribution ATK SHOULD be shifting your damage HIGHER towards your magic number but not past it. I think that was said in that one link that went to a PDF file earlier in this thread (if not I kinda remember where it's at and I'll post it later). There were some other references to stuff that affects damage over all such as STR increasing max damage by a percentage but ATK only shifted a portion of your distribution upwards.

With that said, the way I understand it is that if your ATK shifts your minimum up to your magic number but your magic number is only 10 points higher, high AC mobs will mitigate that ATK bonus and bring you right back down to minimum. That's why with a 13 damage weapon you have slightly better chances because it's not 130 -> 120 but 169 -> 120. How many of your backstabs were greater than 120 but lower than 169 with your 13 damage weapon? How many more were above 169 than with a 10 damage weapon? That might clear some stuff up about ATK.


Also this:

Originally Posted by kanras [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Instead, the backstab damage is calculated, and if it's less than the minimum, the damage is set to the minimum.

I bet if you used a rusty dagger you'd see 95%+ minimum backstabs.

[kanras]

Originally Posted by Aadill [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

@Shiftin:
Actually the magic number is a diminishing curve (13 points per level, diminishes from 9 to 6% gains per damage increase on weapon) and the max hit is also a diminishing curve (29-30 points per level, diminishes from 9 to 6% gains per damage increase on weapon)

There's no curve to magic numbers. It's just 2x weapon damage.

As far as ATK not affecting damage distribution ATK SHOULD be shifting your damage HIGHER towards your magic number but not past it.

This is impossible due to the way the client damage formula works.

[Treats]

Originally Posted by Aadill [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As far as ATK not affecting damage distribution ATK SHOULD be shifting your damage HIGHER towards your magic number but not past it.

As you add more and more ATK you will end up seeing more gains towards Magic Number damage. There will still be a minimal gain from Magic Number + 1 to max but in order to see a noticeable increase you would need to be fighting something that was way below your level.

Player level VS Mob Level and Player ATK VS Mob AC should be the greatest factors in determining where your hit distribution is spread.

Rough Example:

If you were fighting Trakanon with 1000 ATK lets say most of your hits were for minimum damage. If you added 300 ATK (1300) you would probably see a pretty big increase in your hits ranging from (Min + 1) to Magic Number. Most of them still would probably on the low side (from Min to halfway between Min and Magic Number) and over Magic Number damage it would look about the same with a minimal increase (increased though). With Player level VS Mob Level there is simply no way to alter this EXCEPT to raise your level. This is why it was SO important back in classic. Differences in raiding at 59 and 60 were large. You could overcome this somewhat with higher ATK but depending on the Mob's AC (most of the time when raiding you were doing hard shit with high AC) it just wasn't enough. Couple this with being able to better resist AE's at 60 rather than 59 and you were dying alot faster requiring more heals only to do marginal DPS.

Now say you were fighting a Black Bear with 1000 ATK. Most of your hits would probably be right around Magic Number damage + and -. Increasing your ATK by 300 (1300) you would end up seeing alot more hits sprayed in between Magic Number and halfway between Magic Number and Max with it dropping off as you got higher and higher to your Max damage. Hits for minimum to (Magic Number - 1) would be very low.

[Aadill]

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

stuff

That's pretty much how I understood it but with what Kanras is saying that's nigh impossible to do? formulate? calculate?