Upgrading my warriors aggro weapons?

[Legidias]

Keeping a backpack of snare or root nets = effective click aggro (like bio orb) on the cheap.

[Jimjam]

Speaking of aggro, has anyone else noticed the breastplate of fennin ro losing effectiveness?

I am not sure if there was some kind of nerf or if it is just a case of everyone else being much better equipped and they making more aggro to compete with?

[wagorf]

infestation is crap dps, wess is even worse

infestation > wess doesn't make infestation dps non-crap

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by wagorf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

infestation is crap dps, wess is even worse

infestation > wess doesn't make infestation dps non-crap

And what, pray tell, would you consider to be a true aggro weapon that is better than the ‘crap’ 9/18 ratio infestation?

Bear in mind that 18 delay primary is quite important. So much so that jade mace (9/18) edges out over 17/28 stave of shielding for monk primary hand dps at 60. Even with the lower piercing skill cap infestation will about the same actual dps as 12/22 Frostbringer. It will absolutely have higher melee threat (not affected by the lower piercing skill cap) ... not to mention the proc is roughly twice as potent for threat (~900 per proc vs ~450-500)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL...JtaGVsanM/edit

I eagerly anticipate your reply.

PS: make sure the weapon has a proc.

[bigjeff100]

Originally Posted by wagorf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

infestation is crap dps, wess is even worse

infestation > wess doesn't make infestation dps non-crap

Please- Enlighten us more on this....

[Soothsayer]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And what, pray tell, would you consider to be a true aggro weapon that is better than the ‘crap’ 9/18 ratio infestation?

Bear in mind that 18 delay primary is quite important. So much so that jade mace (9/18) edges out over 17/28 stave of shielding for monk primary hand dps at 60. Even with the lower piercing skill cap infestation will about the same actual dps as 12/22 Frostbringer. It will absolutely have higher melee threat (not affected by the lower piercing skill cap) ... not to mention the proc is roughly twice as potent for threat (~900 per proc vs ~450-500)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL...JtaGVsanM/edit

I eagerly anticipate your reply.

PS: make sure the weapon has a proc.

Actually, from my (limited) experience with Infestation, its aggro proc is not better than Frostbringer's. I can recall a couple of instances earlier today in Karnor with another warrior in my group in which his Frostbringer proc went off around the same time as my Infestation, and he ended up snagging the mob from me. Our non-proc threat was similar, since mobs were ping-ponging from him to me. Maybe he taunted, but I don't know.

From what I can tell, Frostbringer's proc dishes out similar (if not slightly more) hate compared to Infestation's proc. I'd be interested in doing more testing to confirm this. Frostbringer might actually be better in the main hand as opposed to the offhand if this is actually the case.

[Troxx]

Below are the relevant weapons for the non-raiding warrior. Several of these (esp the top 3) are superior to the best raid droppable weapons from a purely threat standpoint for primary hand threat. Until Luclin era, true blue threat weapons with Raid calibur ratios did not exit (exceptions discussed below: Silver Whip of Rage and Nevederia's horn). Even then, weapons that focused on warrior needs, in general, had inferior ratios to BIS for melee. VP has a good weapon, but it's not actually *better* than Infestation ... much less the notorious WESS.

Key:
PC = poison counters = ~300 threat per counter
Stun = ~450 threat
Blind = ~450 threat
Debuff = ~400 threat
Snare = ~300 threat

***Of note: if you doubt poison counters generate a ton of threat, ask your neighborhood shaman just how nasty it is to lose aggro after casting higher level dots. The majority of the aggro comes from the poison counters + extra for damage component***

For offhand, ratio is far more important than whatever the delay is. Additionally, offhand weapons have no damage bonus (delay is irrelevant favoring only ratio), and proc rate is 50% of your primary hand which does make weapon ratio more relevant. Keeping that in mind, offhand still represents 50% of your total proc potential, so skipping a proc in your offhand is not wise unless you are over-geared for your group/content and aggro is locked the overwhelming majority of time. For many of the high threat proc weapons, even with a crap ratio they are more pure hate than a higher ratio offhand (both primary, but especially secondary relative to other weapons on the list).

I've attempted to rank them in order of estimated main hand use threat. This list does not take into account your dps. I trust that by the time you are worrying about this list you will have the capability of figuring out what is best for you. For offhand threat, ignore the delay and focus on ratio alone (and proc). Offhand weapon generates a disproportionately small amount of your melee threat aggro. It helps, but is not nearly as important as the primary. The proc, however, does matter.

Estimated threat (primary hand) factoring in ratio (delay factored in) + Proc power

WESS: 11/23 procs blind + 4 PC + debuff for > 2000 threat
Poisoned Whip: 7/18 procs 5 PC + nominal dd/dot for ~ 1500 threat
Infestation: 9/18: procs 3 PC for ~900 threat
Frostbringer: 12/22 procs debuff + DD for ~475 threat
Scorpikis Claw Impaler: 8/25 procs 3 PC for ~900 threat
Ringed Mace of Ykesha: 10/22 ratio procs stun + 75dd for ~ 525 threat
Sarnak Warhammer: 9/20 procs stun for ~450 threat
Ykeshan War Club: 9/24 ratio procs stun + 75dd for ~ 525 threat
Scimitar of Ykesha: 8/22 ratio procs stun + 75dd for ~ 525 threat
Silken Whip of Ensnaring: 14/24 procs snare for ~300 threat
Short sword of Ykesha: 8/24 ratio procs stun + 75dd for ~ 525 threat
Acid Etched Warsword: 8/24 ratio procs stun + 75dd for ~ 525 threat

Other (offhand only):

Trochilic's Skean: 10/25 offhand only; procs stun + 1 PoisonCount for ~750 threat

*If I've left a weapon out, just let me know ... going mostly off of memory here but these are the main ones that you won't find raiding such as red epic (disappointing with velious groupable/droppables), VP, and Velious raiding.

Discussion:

Warriors. Our job is to tank. Being an effective tank means holding threat. If you're not holding threat, you're not tanking ... and you're not doing your job. At the end of the day, holding threat requires procs. The random number generator is a fickle mistress though, and having the best proc on a terri-bad weapon means you won't ever hold aggro without the proc ... not a good situation. The best threat weapons, therefore, are ones that pair a strong proc with a solid ratio. When procs are stingy, you can coast off your melee threat until you get a proc. For the proc monsters on the above list, one proc should make the mob stick to you like glue unless your group is stupid. Depending on your means/finances and the capabilities of your friends/guildmates, your best options may vary, but there are some good choices out there. There does come a time when intentionally downgrading your aggro for utility/dps is a good decision. You have to know who you're hunting with (threat potential of melee, behavior of casters, the type of healer you have).

Regarding your offhand:

Your offhand represents 50% of your total procs. Procs are the majority of your aggro ... to the point that the best raid weapons generate a lot less hate/minute without an aggro proc (exceptions are raid weapons WITH good procs such as VP Blade, Nevederia's Horn and Silver Whip of Rage which have aggro-ish procs in their own right). For the not raiding warrior, in any situation where your aggro is not rock solid <noquestionsasked> ... it's stupid to wield an offhand weapon for a superior ratio and sacrifice 50% of your proc potential. Regardless of the strength of your primary weapon proc, in this era of EQ prior to combat effects and augments to increase your proc potential ... we are subject to the random number generator. In most groups and for most fights, getting that first proc is the deal maker or breaker. By sacrificing 50% of your proc potential, you're trusting to do your job with one hand tied behind your back. Unless you are overgeared for your content, vastly overgeared compared to the rest of your group, or in a duo/trio situation ... you are cheating your group. Every time the rog has to evade vs hold off on hitting backstab ... every time the nuker has to not nuke ... you are holding the group back. Take home point? Your offhand should have a reasonable proc.

Infestation discussion:

WESS is the best aggro. It just is. It's ratio is sub-par at < 0.5 dmg/delay, but it's simply ... the best. "Settling" for infestation is already a situation where you chose superior "DPS" and "Melee threat" over raw proc potential ... because let's be honest ... do you really need 2k hate per proc when *ANY* strong proc will lock it to you? Infestation is thus the smart choice for primary. When it procs, 900 per proc (significantly more than red epic or Frostbringer) is enough to lock it to you. When you strike out on an early proc, however, it's 9/18 ratio is superior enough compared to anything else on the list to allow you to get by. Head to head compared to Frostbringer, it is functionally equal actual dps, superior melee threat (lower piercing skill does not affect this), and it is significantly more global threat as the proc is just that much stronger. FB is an excellent weapon, but it's proc is lower aggro than most weapons on the above list. The saving grace for FB is the superior 12/22 ratio. It makes an ideal offhander.

P99 Raider Caveats:

P99 Raid guilds are currently and will likely always be in the lazy habit of dumping clicky charges (mallets/puppet_strings) on incoming to trivialize the aggro aspect of raiding. This is also true with the cheesy strats of pulling raid mobs to the zone line and bypassing the process of clearing to the mob. It's a sad fact of life here. As such, raid warriors for the premier guilds have the luxury of guaranteed aggro-lock from the start -- contributing to lazy tanks that do not understand the math behind threat or needing to understand the mechanics of threat ... and lazy dps that don't have to manage their aggro early on in the fight without wiping their raids. This list, for that crowd, is irrelevant as you can quickly get a 2000-3000 aggro head start and rely on weapons with inferior aggro to coast to a dead mob. If item recharges did not exist and/or people did not know about or utilize this abused mechanic ... you would see a lot of raid tanks using some of these weapons out of necessity.

TLDR version:

Infestation is the best all-purpose main hand weapon available to the non-raider. It's better threat than red epic by a lot over time (factoring in lots of procs on a longer fight), and more functionally useful than red epic in practical game-play (good balance of low delay and procs) on short fights where you might get only 1-2 procs off. For offhand, Frostbringer is an excellent balance of a "good enough" proc and superior ratio to make it viable 99.99% of the time. In situations where you NEED that extra aggro (and you really shouldn't) or in groups where you are so out-geared by your melee that you will never hold aggro without stupid strong procs ... enter the WESS. If I'm raid tanking and not dumping mallet charges or other clickes? I'd use Infestation + WESS.

What do I use?

If the group doesn't have snare and it's useful? Inf + 14/28 snare whip.
If the group has (or doesn't need) snare? 99% of the time Inf + FB (good enough)
If I want untouchable aggro? Inf + WESS
If I wanted *THE BEST* aggro on a long fight? WESS + Inf

Originally Posted by Soothsayer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Actually, from my (limited) experience with Infestation, its aggro proc is not better than Frostbringer's. I can recall a couple of instances earlier today in Karnor with another warrior in my group in which his Frostbringer proc went off around the same time as my Infestation, and he ended up snagging the mob from me. Our non-proc threat was similar, since mobs were ping-ponging from him to me. Maybe he taunted, but I don't know.

From what I can tell, Frostbringer's proc dishes out similar (if not slightly more) hate compared to Infestation's proc. I'd be interested in doing more testing to confirm this. Frostbringer might actually be better in the main hand as opposed to the offhand if this is actually the case.

Your experience is quite limited then. Frostbringer proc is roughly equivalent to shaman slow. I recall pulling a mob with bow - shaman slowed on incoming before I could melee and I lucked on on a proc with first swing and snagged aggro back without hitting taunt. Infestation proc though is indeed stronger, and it has a superior melee threat potential ratio. I main handed frostbringer + WESS for many levels. Threat compared to infestation + WESS when I finally landed infestation was VERY noticeable (Inf vs FB only variable that changed). This anecdotal observation is backed up by well established empirical data from the classic timeline regarding the strength of aggro from a poison counter. These days I use Inf + FB as the dps is better and a proc from either weapon is sufficient.

[bigjeff100]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Below are the relevant weapons for the non-raiding warrior. Several of these (esp the top 3) are superior to the best raid droppable weapons from a purely threat standpoint for primary hand threat. Until Luclin era, true blue threat weapons with Raid calibur ratios did not exit (exceptions discussed below: Silver Whip of Rage and Nevederia's horn). Even then, weapons that focused on warrior needs, in general, had inferior ratios to BIS for melee. VP has a good weapon, but it's not actually *better* than Infestation ... much less the notorious WESS.

Key:
PC = poison counters = ~300 threat per counter
Stun = ~450 threat
Blind = ~450 threat
Debuff = ~400 threat
Snare = ~300 threat

***Of note: if you doubt poison counters generate a ton of threat, ask your neighborhood shaman just how nasty it is to lose aggro after casting higher level dots. The majority of the aggro comes from the poison counters + extra for damage component***

For offhand, ratio is far more important than whatever the delay is. Additionally, offhand weapons have no damage bonus (delay is irrelevant favoring only ratio), and proc rate is 50% of your primary hand which does make weapon ratio more relevant. Keeping that in mind, offhand still represents 50% of your total proc potential, so skipping a proc in your offhand is not wise unless you are over-geared for your group/content and aggro is locked the overwhelming majority of time. For many of the high threat proc weapons, even with a crap ratio they are more pure hate than a higher ratio offhand (both primary, but especially secondary relative to other weapons on the list).

I've attempted to rank them in order of estimated main hand use threat. This list does not take into account your dps. I trust that by the time you are worrying about this list you will have the capability of figuring out what is best for you. For offhand threat, ignore the delay and focus on ratio alone (and proc). Offhand weapon generates a disproportionately small amount of your melee threat aggro. It helps, but is not nearly as important as the primary. The proc, however, does matter.

Estimated threat (primary hand) factoring in ratio (delay factored in) + Proc power

WESS: 11/23 procs blind + 4 PC + debuff for > 2000 threat
Poisoned Whip: 7/18 procs 5 PC + nominal dd/dot for ~ 1500 threat
Infestation: 9/18: procs 3 PC for ~900 threat
Frostbringer: 12/22 procs debuff + DD for ~475 threat
Scorpikis Claw Impaler: 8/25 procs 3 PC for ~900 threat
Ringed Mace of Ykesha: 10/22 ratio procs stun + 75dd for ~ 525 threat
Sarnak Warhammer: 9/20 procs stun for ~450 threat
Ykeshan War Club: 9/24 ratio procs stun + 75dd for ~ 525 threat
Scimitar of Ykesha: 8/22 ratio procs stun + 75dd for ~ 525 threat
Silken Whip of Ensnaring: 14/24 procs snare for ~300 threat
Short sword of Ykesha: 8/24 ratio procs stun + 75dd for ~ 525 threat
Acid Etched Warsword: 8/24 ratio procs stun + 75dd for ~ 525 threat

Other (offhand only):

Trochilic's Skean: 10/25 offhand only; procs stun + 1 PoisonCount for ~750 threat

*If I've left a weapon out, just let me know ... going mostly off of memory here but these are the main ones that you won't find raiding such as red epic (disappointing with velious groupable/droppables), VP, and Velious raiding.

Discussion:

Warriors. Our job is to tank. Being an effective tank means holding threat. If you're not holding threat, you're not tanking ... and you're not doing your job. At the end of the day, holding threat requires procs. The random number generator is a fickle mistress though, and having the best proc on a terri-bad weapon means you won't ever hold aggro without the proc ... not a good situation. The best threat weapons, therefore, are ones that pair a strong proc with a solid ratio. When procs are stingy, you can coast off your melee threat until you get a proc. For the proc monsters on the above list, one proc should make the mob stick to you like glue unless your group is stupid. Depending on your means/finances and the capabilities of your friends/guildmates, your best options may vary, but there are some good choices out there. There does come a time when intentionally downgrading your aggro for utility/dps is a good decision. You have to know who you're hunting with (threat potential of melee, behavior of casters, the type of healer you have).

Regarding your offhand:

Your offhand represents 50% of your total procs. Procs are the majority of your aggro ... to the point that the best raid weapons generate a lot less hate/minute without an aggro proc (exceptions are raid weapons WITH good procs such as VP Blade, Nevederia's Horn and Silver Whip of Rage which have aggro-ish procs in their own right). For the not raiding warrior, in any situation where your aggro is not rock solid <noquestionsasked> ... it's stupid to wield an offhand weapon for a superior ratio and sacrifice 50% of your proc potential. Regardless of the strength of your primary weapon proc, in this era of EQ prior to combat effects and augments to increase your proc potential ... we are subject to the random number generator. In most groups and for most fights, getting that first proc is the deal maker or breaker. By sacrificing 50% of your proc potential, you're trusting to do your job with one hand tied behind your back. Unless you are overgeared for your content, vastly overgeared compared to the rest of your group, or in a duo/trio situation ... you are cheating your group. Every time the rog has to evade vs hold off on hitting backstab ... every time the nuker has to not nuke ... you are holding the group back. Take home point? Your offhand should have a reasonable proc.

Infestation discussion:

WESS is the best aggro. It just is. It's ratio is sub-par at < 0.5 dmg/delay, but it's simply ... the best. "Settling" for infestation is already a situation where you chose superior "DPS" and "Melee threat" over raw proc potential ... because let's be honest ... do you really need 2k hate per proc when *ANY* strong proc will lock it to you? Infestation is thus the smart choice for primary. When it procs, 900 per proc (significantly more than red epic or Frostbringer) is enough to lock it to you. When you strike out on an early proc, however, it's 9/18 ratio is superior enough compared to anything else on the list to allow you to get by. Head to head compared to Frostbringer, it is functionally equal actual dps, superior melee threat (lower piercing skill does not affect this), and it is significantly more global threat as the proc is just that much stronger. FB is an excellent weapon, but it's proc is lower aggro than most weapons on the above list. The saving grace for FB is the superior 12/22 ratio. It makes an ideal offhander.

P99 Raider Caveats:

P99 Raid guilds are currently and will likely always be in the lazy habit of dumping clicky charges (mallets/puppet_strings) on incoming to trivialize the aggro aspect of raiding. This is also true with the cheesy strats of pulling raid mobs to the zone line and bypassing the process of clearing to the mob. It's a sad fact of life here. As such, raid warriors for the premier guilds have the luxury of guaranteed aggro-lock from the start -- contributing to lazy tanks that do not understand the math behind threat or needing to understand the mechanics of threat ... and lazy dps that don't have to manage their aggro early on in the fight without wiping their raids. This list, for that crowd, is irrelevant as you can quickly get a 2000-3000 aggro head start and rely on weapons with inferior aggro to coast to a dead mob. If item recharges did not exist and/or people did not know about or utilize this abused mechanic ... you would see a lot of raid tanks using some of these weapons out of necessity.

TLDR version:

Infestation is the best all-purpose main hand weapon available to the non-raider. It's better threat than red epic by a lot over time (factoring in lots of procs on a longer fight), and more functionally useful than red epic in practical game-play (good balance of low delay and procs) on short fights where you might get only 1-2 procs off. For offhand, Frostbringer is an excellent balance of a "good enough" proc and superior ratio to make it viable 99.99% of the time. In situations where you NEED that extra aggro (and you really shouldn't) or in groups where you are so out-geared by your melee that you will never hold aggro without stupid strong procs ... enter the WESS. If I'm raid tanking and not dumping mallet charges or other clickes? I'd use Infestation + WESS.

What do I use?

If the group doesn't have snare and it's useful? Inf + 14/28 snare whip.
If the group has (or doesn't need) snare? 99% of the time Inf + FB (good enough)
If I want untouchable aggro? Inf + WESS
If I wanted *THE BEST* aggro on a long fight? WESS + Inf



Your experience is quite limited then. Frostbringer proc is roughly equivalent to shaman slow. I recall pulling a mob with bow - shaman slowed on incoming before I could melee and I lucked on on a proc with first swing and snagged aggro back without hitting taunt. Infestation proc though is indeed stronger, and it has a superior melee threat potential ratio. I main handed frostbringer + WESS for many levels. Threat compared to infestation + WESS when I finally landed infestation was VERY noticeable (Inf vs FB only variable that changed). This anecdotal observation is backed up by well established empirical data from the classic timeline regarding the strength of aggro from a poison counter. These days I use Inf + FB as the dps is better and a proc from either weapon is sufficient.

Solid!

[Raev]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In most groups and for most fights, getting that first proc is the deal maker or breaker.

Right. What most people don't understand is that average threat for warriors over decently long fights, say 1 minute or more, is just fine. The problem is the worst case. For example, 1/20 fights you'll wait a full minute for that first proc. Oops. Of course, without augs/proc mod weapons/ae taunt a Warrior doesn't have much choice.

Which is, again, why the Bio orb is infinitely better than any weapon out there. Just getting 1 guaranteed proc within the first few seconds of a fight (depending on how far you can see) hugely improves your worst case. I've played enchanter in the Halls of Testing with Warrior tanks and it SUCKS. You are regularly waiting 20s for that first proc or for enough melee threat, and without tash it's very difficult to land slow. I'm impatient so I die a lot. When I play Sakuragi the bio orb makes everything vastly smoother: instant tash and by the time the shaman gets off malo, slow, and malosini I probably have enough threat for a second slow attempt, and if not I can just use the orb and pull it off them in 5s. So with, say, one enchanter and two shaman you get full MR debuffs and 5 slow attempts in 20s. That's nearly knight level. Meanwhile there is a good chance an orbless warrior hasn't even called assist yet.

It's a single item that will make your raid 20% better. Can't beat that.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Right. What most people don't understand is that average threat for warriors over decently long fights, say 1 minute or more, is just fine. The problem is the worst case. For example, 1/20 fights you'll wait a full minute for that first proc. Oops. Of course, without augs/proc mod weapons/ae taunt a Warrior doesn't have much choice.

Which is, again, why the Bio orb is infinitely better than any weapon out there. Just getting 1 guaranteed proc within the first few seconds of a fight (depending on how far you can see) hugely improves your worst case. I've played enchanter in the Halls of Testing with Warrior tanks and it SUCKS. You are regularly waiting 20s for that first proc or for enough melee threat, and without tash it's very difficult to land slow. I'm impatient so I die a lot. When I play Sakuragi the bio orb makes everything vastly smoother: instant tash and by the time the shaman gets off malo, slow, and malosini I probably have enough threat for a second slow attempt, and if not I can just use the orb and pull it off them in 5s. So with, say, one enchanter and two shaman you get full MR debuffs and 5 slow attempts in 20s. That's nearly knight level. Meanwhile there is a good chance an orbless warrior hasn't even called assist yet.

It's a single item that will make your raid 20% better. Can't beat that.

All true but 125k for a situational 5 second clicky. Timing has to be perfect on any mob that it might land on or it will run off before it hits camp. If you wait for the mob to be in camp that’s 3-5 seconds of the mob hitting someone else. If you establish aggro in camp before you click ... warriors have no channeling skill and you will be interrupted if you’re hit just once.

Good tool for sure but cost prohibitively expensive and situational at best and not practical outside of raid mobs that not only won’t resist it but also where you have LoS and distance to perfectly time the click.