Do Not Engage: Warriors Vs. PALs/SHDs

[Estu]

Originally Posted by Kavanah [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I know that most of my groupies will engage right when I do. If we are fighting blue cons its easy for me to keep aggro, above that it usually pings around until I land a proc.

Right. I'm not terribly concerned about blue cons; generally in a full EXP group you wanna be taking a good deal of even and higher cons anyway, although I can't speak to the higher-level situation as I don't know the camps (I've only grouped for extended periods of time in Crushbone and Unrest). If the mob is pinging around I think that's indicative of a problem. Not saying you're a bad tank, but at that point the warrior either has other people taking damage or the warrior needs to tell everyone else to wait on DPS - in either case, my original question applies.

[Meldor]

Originally Posted by Estu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Right. I'm not terribly concerned about blue cons; generally in a full EXP group you wanna be taking a good deal of even and higher cons anyway, although I can't speak to the higher-level situation as I don't know the camps (I've only grouped for extended periods of time in Crushbone and Unrest). If the mob is pinging around I think that's indicative of a problem. Not saying you're a bad tank, but at that point the warrior either has other people taking damage or the warrior needs to tell everyone else to wait on DPS - in either case, my original question applies.

That's not a problem.. stop with your WoW mentality.. back on live 12 years ago you had to wait for your tanks to build aggro and it's the same now.

You guys are soo freaking carebears now a day... play smart play with skills, if your a dps and YOU pick aggro YOU are the problem. Yes Sk/Pal got it easier for aggro but in the other hand Warrior have more HP / AC and skills then Hybrid tanks.

So be smart.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Estu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Could anyone else confirm/deny this? I hear a lot of talk about warriors having to wait before letting the rest of the group engage.

Also, I'm interested in exp groups and level 50 groups as well as raids. Why exactly are warriors only preferred as main tanks for raids? At what level do they become preferable to SKs and PALs in general as main tanks?

It's hate list management and all the variables that go into it. You want the tank to absorb as much damage as possible, so your group's healing mana efficiently goes into just one player. Which means the tank needs to do his best to stay at the top of the hate list:

1) Weapon procs/spells build hate
2) Weapon DPS builds hate
3) Taunt throws you 1 "hate pt" higher than the current person at the top of the hate list.

If a mob is yellow/red con, you lose (3) as a tool (until Kunark, when warriors get this fixed). Meanwhile, everyone else attacking the mob is subject to (1) and (2) at the same time you are. And mashing down the Taunt button every time it pops if you are already at the top of the hate list just gives you several seconds that you can lose aggro and not have an instant attempt at regaining it to get the mob off someone.

The tank has to be the highest on the hate list, otherwise the mob will come off him and aggro someone else, who is probably not properly equipped to handle that sustained damage. For example, the ranger who went hells-bells with his flux axe proc. The overnuking wizard who can only take a few hits before he goes down. The CHing cleric, who can't heal anyone if she goes DA to save her own ass and the mob aggros on someone else.

If the warrior is not properly equipped, he will fail at (1) or (2) over other melee classes and probably some casters, so the way to compensate is to let him build hate on his own for a while until everyone else engages, to give him that head start. The advantage that hybrid tanks have is that their spells give them an additional boost at (1).

Or, you go EZ mode if it's not a yellow/red con mob and just root the mob to create proximity aggro... then all the warrior has to do is be closest to the mob. Rangers are good at this because unless they're pulling with harmony, snaring, pretending to be druids and nuking, etc... they generally have non-critical mana they can divert to this task, and can take several hits in case they get a resist or root breaks early.

The reason why warriors are preferred for raids is that the mob DPS starts getting far too heavy for the hybrid tanks to mitigate effectively, requiring more healer mana being consumed at a faster rate (i.e. more clerics in the CH chain and/or faster CH cycles). So you use the class designed to take damage... the warrior.

The problem is, for raid targets, which are most likely going to be yellow/red con to the warrior unless you're raiding Crushbone, you lose (3) again. And with the kind of DPS the mobs are dishing out, and with 10-second cast time on CHs, you cannot afford to have that mob come off the warrior and start crunching your melee DPS or your healers. So you give the warrior a sufficient head start on building hate/aggro before you have everyone else engage, even at the expense of having to expend extra raid mana healing because the mob is not being engaged by full raid DPS for the first 30 seconds or whatever.

Because if that tank loses aggro, the boss mob is going to go right down the hate list and start whacking people that Complete Heals are not incoming to. Ideally you phase in several other tanks before fully engaging the mob so that all your eggs aren't in one warrior basket. If you're fast, your padding heals can save the next tank until the clerics can determine who the mob is on and re-direct the CH chain. Otherwise you start losing healers, melees, etc while the warrior frantically tries to regain his top position on the hate list without having (3) available to use. If your raid is well-honed, everyone stops attacking to let the tank (or the next tank) regain his padding on the hate list (and hope that next tank is sufficiently above the CH chain clerics on the hate list).

[Rallyd]

Warriors are the best mitigation tanks in the game, that being said they are THE premiere tank for raid content, however; SK's and Paladins have ranged threat generation, this is very useful for tagging mobs that are being kited and can't be dps'ed or they summon, or for mobs where you can't afford to wait a few seconds for the warrior to get aggro. -This applies to classic only-

For those of you who say SK/Pal is best in group exp situations - the 40% drop they give to the group exp rate says otherwise. These classes are a burden to allow into a group, for those of us who are interested in not wasting time.

When kunark is released SK and Paladins are nothing more than glorified rangers, as no boss will EVER be tanked without defensive discipline, unless you're ghetto and don't have a warrior. Also disease cloud aggro is nerfed in Kunark.

Also, if you're an ogre warrior you need not worry about sta or str, you focus completely on hp when stamina capped, dex being secondary at this point. If you're any other race than ogre as a warrior you should reroll.

[Estu]

Originally Posted by Rallyd [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For those of you who say SK/Pal is best in group exp situations - the 6.7% drop they give to the group exp rate says otherwise. These classes are a burden to allow into a group, for those of us who are interested in not wasting time.

Fixed.

Originally Posted by Rallyd [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also, if you're an ogre warrior you need not worry about sta or str, you focus completely on hp when stamina capped, dex being secondary at this point. If you're any other race than ogre as a warrior you should reroll.

Why is DEX secondary? Isn't the primary concern holding aggro? Also, could you explain what defensive discipline does?

Yendor: I appreciate the long reply, but it doesn't really address any of my questions. It kind of reads like a warrior tutorial. Which is fine and all, but I'm familiar with most of these concepts.

[quellren]

Nothing is ever 'exactly the case'. And I'm not disagreeing with you about the fact there are some scenarios where one class of tank is better than another.

BUT

as a general rule of thumb...

Warriors shine on raid targets where the hits are harder, but the DPS can wait for an aggro lead to be built.

SK and Pals shine on trash mobs and exp groups where snap aggro is the key to the Ghoul Archmagi not face-melting your casters.

[ransom16]

I see only one flaw in this thread.

You fail to mention the obviously superior tanking class.

The Ranger.

Now we can /thread.

[Kavanah]

Originally Posted by ransom16 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I see only one flaw in this thread.

You fail to mention the obviously superior tanking class.

The Ranger.

Now we can /thread.

Denial aint just a river in Egypt.

/thread

[odizzido]

All three tanks are useful in raids, it just depends on what you fight. If you are wondering which class to play, just pick the one that you want to play the most.

[DOPE]

Originally Posted by Kavanah [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Denial aint just a river in Egypt.

/thread

Wait... Aren't you a ranger?

-Stack

LMAO