The Common Man's NToV Raid Rules Thread

[Oleris]

if training was legalized literally nothing would die.

The issue is that unles you have 3-4 mages parked at different parts in NTOV the only decent spot to kill stuff is around the corner of the steps. We had some issues there when rampage and forsaken/asgard both tried pulling to this step. We pulled a dragon at the same time rampage pulled trash mobs. The result was both of us wiping. If someone pulls from e/w/zone line it will fuck anyone in north steps. So, I can see a couple possible solutions.

1)Make the drakes not see invis (makes getting to POM a joke, makes pulls easier and makes north tov a joke).

2) add 1-2 more safe spots in north wing either by removing pathers in some spots. This is still an issue because you will need to stick rez a mage or spend at least an hour clearing trash mobs to get to this kill spot.

3) make dragons rooted or tethered. This will challenge people and will make it a race to FTE instead of monks playing rope-a-dope to try and get a clean pull out of 10 mobs.

[Juevento]

For the sake of simplification, the entity known as Forsaken/Asgard will be known as TMO.

Truth be told, I don't mind killing things in other wings. BDAs NToV mob kills have involved very clever pulls to safe locations that only we were occupying. Additionally any trains we started to move move out of the way we're done in a safe and responsible fashion. So I think out of wing kills are more tha doable in a non skeezy way. You just can't have dummies out doing pulls and stuff.

[dafier]

Originally Posted by Juevento [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For the sake of simplification, the entity known as Forsaken/Asgard will be known as TMO.

Truth be told, I don't mind killing things in other wings. BDAs NToV mob kills have involved very clever pulls to safe locations that only we were occupying. Additionally any trains we started to move move out of the way we're done in a safe and responsible fashion. So I think out of wing kills are more tha doable in a non skeezy way. You just can't have dummies out doing pulls and stuff.

In my opinion that's the problem. The other guilds like TMO have been pulling in a non safe and responsible fashion.

L2Pull?

[Maner]

Originally Posted by Juevento [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For the sake of simplification, the entity known as Forsaken/Asgard will be known as TMO.

Truth be told, I don't mind killing things in other wings. BDAs NToV mob kills have involved very clever pulls to safe locations that only we were occupying. Additionally any trains we started to move move out of the way we're done in a safe and responsible fashion. So I think out of wing kills are more tha doable in a non skeezy way. You just can't have dummies out doing pulls and stuff.

If this was actually the case there wouldn't have been a thread in the first place...

[maestrom]

Caveat: I don't raid here.

I raided pretty heavily on Live from Velious-PoP. I never went on raid that trained/kited trash away from raid targets before RZtWL, where we kited the adds that spawned.

I believe the FTE rule is largely to blame for the mess. On Nameless, the rule was "First in force". First guild to gather its raid force in a zone got to pick its target (North, West, HoT). This worked fantastically well for lots of reasons. Primarily, it forced guilds to prioritize their targets. If guild A is claiming NToV, then they can't also claim Tormax, or Statue. This let more guilds get more targets and eliminated the need to train trash around to tag targets.

I know why we have FTE. But it seems like with top guilds having 2-3 different raid forces of alts parked around the game, it essentially locks smaller guilds out of raiding. If Guild A is socking ToV North, and trak pops, they can camp over to their alts, FTE and kill it before a less coordinated guild can mobilize. They can do this without losing their shot at ToV north. With first in force, if Guild A wanted to go after Trak, they would have to disengage ToV north and lose their claim at North, which would let smaller guilds take Trak.

[am0n]

Originally Posted by maestrom [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Caveat: I don't raid here.

I raided pretty heavily on Live from Velious-PoP. I never went on raid that trained/kited trash away from raid targets before RZtWL, where we kited the adds that spawned.

I believe the FTE rule is largely to blame for the mess. On Nameless, the rule was "First in force". First guild to gather its raid force in a zone got to pick its target (North, West, HoT). This worked fantastically well for lots of reasons. Primarily, it forced guilds to prioritize their targets. If guild A is claiming NToV, then they can't also claim Tormax, or Statue. This let more guilds get more targets and eliminated the need to train trash around to tag targets.

I know why we have FTE. But it seems like with top guilds having 2-3 different raid forces of alts parked around the game, it essentially locks smaller guilds out of raiding. If Guild A is socking ToV North, and trak pops, they can camp over to their alts, FTE and kill it before a less coordinated guild can mobilize. They can do this without losing their shot at ToV north. With first in force, if Guild A wanted to go after Trak, they would have to disengage ToV north and lose their claim at North, which would let smaller guilds take Trak.

I love this idea. Unfortunately, there would be basically no way to enforce it. Devs had to add FTE just to get people to stop shitting up the system. Imagine if the only "proof" they had first force was a shopped screen cap? Perhaps if we had a stronger GM presence to lay down the law a few times until people straightened out.

[maestrom]

Originally Posted by am0n [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I love this idea. Unfortunately, there would be basically no way to enforce it. Devs had to add FTE just to get people to stop shitting up the system. Imagine if the only "proof" they had first force was a shopped screen cap? Perhaps if we had a stronger GM presence to lay down the law a few times until people straightened out.

Appreciate you not trolling. I don't think it needs a strong gm presence. Every raid guild rolls with fraps on all the time anyways. It's not hard set numbers for encounters, we have enough data and experience to know what these encounters take.

We can argue about when the threshold for "first in force" is met, pure numbers would be easiest to enforce. If everyone agrees that it takes 30 people to kill a target, then whichever guild gets 30 people in the zone first (no doubt with fraps running) gets to claim the target and other guilds have to go find something else to do. Maybe a certain raod makeup could be required for higher priority Vel targets. (Like you need XYZ clerics/enchanters for NToV to claim).

Would there still be drama? OF COURSE!

We have drama because people get upset over competitive content. First in force means the drama plays out at zonelines and results in guilds moving on to do other things instead of have 3 guilds frothing at the mouth training each other trying to get FTE on the same targets. First in force doesn't reduce drama, it reduces trains and increases access to content for less competitive guilds.

[arsenalpow]

Until first in force turns into a guild sitting at the designated spot 40 people deep 24 hours before the content even comes into window to secure their shot. P99 is home to a special sort of degenerate.

[am0n]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Until first in force turns into a guild sitting at the designated spot 40 people deep 24 hours before the content even comes into window to secure their shot. P99 is home to a special sort of degenerate.

And that's okay. If those people want that spawn so badly they do that, power to them. It frees up other spawns for other guilds. I'm pretty sure that's the point he was getting at.

[JboxCSU]

There is no good solution.

Best one I can dream up is limit 3 or so guilds a spawn cycle to race to mobs, on rotation.

Still has some of the same issues, but it's less of a clusterfuck than now.